For reference, Erica, the original thread is http://www.nappyvalleynet.com/mums/view ... 46&t=38982 The post detailing the other side of what happened is at the bottom of the first page, where the father of the boy details how she shouted in his face. I'd strongly suggest reading the original thread before defending Cal.

Cal, it's unsurprising that you bowed out of this thread. Your argument that autistic children should use separate facilities to everyone else is utterly indefensible. You must know that on some level.

"No wonder he’s autistic. his father’s an idiot.” Bunch of great quotes in your original thread, Cal! Please be sure to mention them to the journalist.

my children 'love to run around without a care in the world and they tend to not be the best look-outs', they have accidents, they hurt other children, they get hurt. It seems the child that this incident refers to is pretty much like my own..

I literally can't understand this.. Makes me want to bash my head against a brick wall... To read the initial post without open mouth is an impossible feat and to be able to write it without believing that people would respond in a non-supportive way is astonishing.

And yet the initial poster has come back to let everyone know they're going 'reporter' style with it... Fabulous... Just what every family needs...

I think there's been a lot of hate towards Cals_mum_silly for speaking out about segregation but I think she just didn't word her thoughts properly. It wasn't a blanket idea for all kids with autism or disabilities. I think Cals_mum_silly meant it as if to say, if the parent of said special needs child knows they love to run around without a care in the world and they tend to not be the best look-out then sure, have them play in an area that fits their level and play style. If it didn't exist then there wouldn't be a need for it, but it does, and in this case (we don't know the level of autism this child has) we don't know if it would fit. There are some big unknowns here.

That being said, I think there's some playground etiquette that was obviously not met by normal standards in this story. The father totally should've said lightened the mood with an apology and it was due to the mother and said child that was hurt. But Cals_mum felt that he used it as an excuse, and may as well have. We don't know. We weren't there. Still not cool for any parent to do. The father was not empathetic and thinking of the rest of the parents on the playground that day when he was not only disregarding safety of other kids but of his own. What if a parent had said something to the kid that then turned into a parental altercation between adults. He should've put some thought into the situation and been on guard.

I've read a lot of people writing about their personal stories tied with autism, whether it be grandchild or niece or what have you and its great to jump on the bandwagon, but I think it also breeds too much emotion for an internet thread which can then get personal and attacks can happen which sting on both sides.

I've worked with Autistic children and adults and their play styles can differ than other children depending on the severity of the case. Perhaps this was just a case of an accident getting out of control. To bash someone on the when they're upset over an unapologetic and flippant father, who then suggests the use of a special needs playground for which the child in question could very well be suited for is just unempathetic.

I think its difficult sometimes to read past the words and to get to the main motivation behind people's writing on these threads. A little bit of love of empathy go a long way.

I will not be responding to further posts on this thread. I will however speak to the journalist who originally contacted me as this entire debate points up the need for serious and civil (as opposed to ad hominem) discussion about what Council facilities are for and how they should be used.

And to address the silly assumption that I would like to live in a place where everyone is like me --- I've long since left my country! I sought out other cultures to live with people who were different from me. Before the UK I lived for several years in Europe and worked in the Middle East. My husband and I are from different countries. This is silly. In my immediate family we hold passports from four countries among them the UK. No one wants people to be the same, just act responsibly. How do these add up to the same thing? Where is this coming from??? It's crazy.

This is what I mean by irony: defending tolerance and diversity by suggesting I ought to leave the country. This is a magnificent paradox. No one is seeking to segregate kids, only to encourage their parents to show a responsible attitude to their behavior. This seems to have hit a nerve that I would never have imagined so inflamed in contrast to an observation so banal and self-evident. I am still amazed at the reaction. But to address a point of pure logic, if children shouldn't ever be separated then why is the special needs park there? Potentially they may benefit from coaching and equipment designed for them. If I were facing this predicament this is the kind of facility I would be lobbying for, not protesting against. And here I was thinking how astonishingly compassionate and effective the state is in this country - as opposed to my own - for providing it.

Is Cals_mum_silly even in the U.K. legally? I am not keen on people like this being given indefinite leave to remain here or, even worse, citizenship.

Cals_mum_silly wrote: To me -- still -- the real possibility that someone could get hurt trumps being P.C. if there is a brilliant facility for children with special needs, that's what it's there for. what's wrong with saying so?

Because it's wrong to relegate "special needs" children to a separate park, even if said separate park is a "brilliant facility." There is no justification for this attitude. None. Unless you want to Godwin the thread--oh wait, you already did that.

You're treading on ice here and I find it unfortunate that you don't realize how thin it is. Also, your description of autism as "a tragedy" etc, is insensitive. Certainly none of the autistic adults I know would describe themselves as "tragedies."

Sincerely, one of those "hapless, unwitting Americans" who also has the temerity to express an opinion out loud. And really, there's a lot more I could say on this topic, despite my children both being neurotypical, but unfortunately I don't think you'd take it in. That makes me really sad, and I'm sure you'd be happier and feel "safer" surrounded by cookie cutters of yourself/your ideal person. Fact is, life doesn't work that way. And, as much as I'm sure you'd like to blame something or someone (whether it's a different culture or a parent of a child with special needs), in this case, you are overreacting and very much in the wrong for attempting to cast blame. I hope that someday you're able to look back on this thread and see your words in a new light.

here is what I find to be an irony of life in the U.K.: expressing a need for tolerance by verbally blasting someone and calling them names. this is deeply ironic. expressing outrage and then calling it empathy. ...odd. when I heard the slogan "broken Britain," i thought this was a shallow, cheap election ploy. surely my country is the one that's broken? idiotic tea parties, no health care system, dire poverty amidst crazy wealth, no coherent attempt to fix it ...Bush. etc. but then I see things like this. and I have to admit, I'm utterly at sea. an intelligent approach to a problem is to try to find a solution to fix it. autism manifests in physically healthy children, tragically, as anti-social behavior and occasional outbursts that can even be violent. families clearly cope with this, and they are heroic. kids can thrive, with coaching. but the response to their predicament, is surely not to pretend to ignore it? this will not help them adapt. and it puts other parents in a very difficult spot. i never said anything to this boy; it was his father I had a problem with. parent-to-parent, I think this is fair enough. it did not (and will not) have a happy resolution, as long as no one is prepared to concede that these concerns are themselves valid.

I included a full account of the original incident that was deliberately unflattering to me because I wanted people to have all the facts so that they could render a genuine judgment (our spelling), I wasn't seeking solace. If I was in the wrong, or felt myself to be, I would apologize. But I still don't feel that allowing children to hurt each other is safe or wise or sane. If this happens *something must be done.* i'm not advocating segregation. i'm asking for responsible parenting. that means acknowledging what took place. We can't pretend it isn't happening. I can express all the abstract sympathy I can muster for people coping with special situations, but when my child -- or any child -- is hurt I expect a parent to respond, not to ignore it. that has to be the sine qua non of sharing public space. i fail to understand -- to my obvious detriment -- why expressing this opinion is controversial. ...and let the posts roll in.

FWIW i may be stepping on another mine here but what the hell: to me this entire incident is symptomatic of many phenomena I have observed in this country since I moved here in 2007:

a. there is a problem.
b. people ignore it.
c. it spills over into genuine pain.
d. someone affected expresses distress at the lack of any response to fix it.
e. that person is publicly castigated as being a species of Nazi -- what else?
f. bonhomie duly established, now the subject is changed.
g. the original problem remains unfixed.
h. new debate ensues over someone's right to speak up in self-defense
i. having seen the cost of speaking up, we all agree to avoid the issue.
j. the problem remains unfixed.
k. we all agree not to talk about it since talking only ever makes it worse.
l. 50 years go by.
m. some hapless unwitting American has the temerity to express an opinion out loud.
n. hell breaks loose.

... I can't believe this is the way people deal with a problem.

my god. i only just read all of the replies to my post from seven months ago. first of all a clarification: I did not "scream" at any time, and i certainly did not scream in the boy's face. i said nothing to the boy, whatsoever. i waited for his father to take some action during the initial moments after the violent encounter that I spent comforting my son. he did *nothing* -- no attempt to address the behavior with us, the other parents, or his son. no acknowledgement. nothing. I find -- still-- that this is shocking. if you want to use a public park, i still say, you have to acknowledge other parents if your child *hurts* someone else. plain and simple. autistic or not. i'm not inclined to apologize after taking so much abuse. i do not live in a bubble. i have no idea what "low middle class" means as thankfully the U.S. does not label people in this way. but we do understand when people have different needs. To me -- still -- the real possibility that someone could get hurt trumps being P.C. if there is a brilliant facility for children with special needs, that's what it's there for. what's wrong with saying so? i'm not being insensitive. i'm merely asking for sanity. and in my opinion, there was little of it in response to this post -- or the other parents painted a *very* different picture of what took place. i'm just glad i avoided this forum for a few months while the vitriol poured in. though i find it very helpful and positive on other occasions. but, wow. there are two sides to every story. i would never scream at a kid. and I would never have said anything to the dad if he had volunteered an acknowledgement. didn't have to be a big speech. just "is he okay?" ...but no, we were not treated to that much courtesy. having seen my son crying and injured, this man actually asked me, when I protested at his non-intervention, at his lack of any reaction at all, "what's wrong with you?" i found that heroically offensive. all I was insisting on, was the fact that that wasn't just fine. and I wasn't going to ignore it. that's simply not safe. ...i am astonished by the vitriol on this forum. there are a few brilliant insights on here but largely -- ask yourselves -- what is the purpose of name-calling? of this kind of violence? really? how bizarre. i find it kind of surreal to be the target of so much angst. i actually received a request for an interview with a newspaper, which I ignored, much as I ignored the many, many responses to this post after it became clear i had stepped on a mine. with apologies, for following up so late. but i do want to set the record straight.

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Sorry this is upsetting but this is the reason we want him moved from that school

The bite mark will scar as it is deep and wide

I love my Grandson so much and it breaks my heart to think of him being in agony ( they said he cried , well of COURSE he did , try biting an adult till the teeth go in and it bleeds and see how much pain they are in )

Anyway thanks metoo , it is indeed sad and he is such a loving , sensitive and gentle boy xx

This is a very sad story; I hope the school are working to stop the hitting and pushing. My son had a severely autistic boy in his class and the teacher's framed it so it was a privilege for the others to be involved with his care/day. They used to put their hands up and many wanted to be the child to sit next to him; they held his hand to take him to lunch and were pleased if he said their names (he too had limited speech). One boy gave up his chance of glory at sports day to be his co-runner. They benefitted greatly by having him in their class - he moved on to a special needs school aged 7. However, I realise this can't always be the case but I think it's a good model to work towards.

I've probably opened up a can of worms but if it is my duty to protect the child in my care then it is my duty to protect other children too

If I had a friend with an Autistic or non Autistic child and EVERY time I went round to visit with my child he was hit or pushed etc on more than one occasion even if the child was made to say sorry every time it happened and it kept happening again on every visit I am NOT going to continue to let the child in my care be injured by the other child and would NOT be visiting any more with my child

I cannot say to myself ''oh well he / she is Autistic , so it doesn't matter'' and will let it keep happening , I feel I have a duty to protect and a ''sorry'' after the 4th time in a row your child has been injured does not wash on a prevention and supervision level!

( It's a sensitive subject but my Grandson is NOT a punchbag for other peoples kids , and just 'accepting' it because the child has a disability is not on as surely we have a duty to protect all our children and other peoples children too? )