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Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by atbattersea » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:39 pm

this_is_cat wrote:Some more fabulous cherry picking of the facts, AtBattersea!
All references to wildlife (on page 36 of the document which you posted a link to, for all those who don't want to have to read it) show that all the wildlife concerns raised by the complainants were groundless.
I think you'll find that I didn't express a view on the native wildlife one way or the other. I understand that there are concerns about bats in the park, and that there was a documented decline.
Which again begs the question as to why you are happy to keep picking holes in all other posters which continuing to peddle the nonsense on the 'save Battersea park' website.
I'm sorry, this sentence doesn't make any sense to me - are there a few words missed out or something!?
And presumably if the Friends of the Park are so concerned about wildlife being 'traumatised', you will all be leading a campaign to ban the fireworks displays, ban fishing in the ponds and ensure the zoo improves its welfare standards?
I have not heard complaints about these events/activities, nor have I seen a report from the Council on them.

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by atbattersea » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:34 pm

mungomuffit wrote:Also claiming that weeks of "lead up" to the event were hugely disruptive.
This is acknowledged in the Council's own report, as are (some of) the cancelled or displaced sports events.
Anyway it's a done deal, so there is not really any point getting blue in the face.
Apparently it is not - because the Council is going to hold a full debate and vote on the issue.
As you like giving us homework links, have you read this one from me? http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/environme ... 623068.ece
Sorry, I don't subscribe to the Times.

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by this_is_cat » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:07 pm

Some more fabulous cherry picking of the facts, AtBattersea!
All references to wildlife (on page 36 of the document which you posted a link to, for all those who don't want to have to read it) show that all the wildlife concerns raised by the complainants were groundless.
Which again begs the question as to why you are happy to keep picking holes in all other posters which continuing to peddle the nonsense on the 'save Battersea park' website.

And presumably if the Friends of the Park are so concerned about wildlife being 'traumatised', you will all be leading a campaign to ban the fireworks displays, ban fishing in the ponds and ensure the zoo improves its welfare standards?

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by atbattersea » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:44 pm

this_is_cat wrote:The anti-formula e brigade really scored an own goal with the tone of their campaign.
It was totally hysterical and frankly insulting to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.
Claims it was a health and safety disaster…
Please read Wandsworth Council's own report into the event, this clearly acknowledges in several places that there were distinct health and safety issues during the construction phases for Formula-E. That's not some nimby campaign group's view, that's the whitewashed view from within the Council itself.

https://democracy.wandsworth.gov.uk/doc ... mula-E.pdf
It is also somewhat ironic that 'atbattersea' is positioning themself as a beacon of facts and figures while promoting a website and petition that claims things like 'wildlife were traumatised'
AtBattersea, please can you share the credentials of the vet who diagnosed the trauma, and also the details of the diagnosed animals?
This information is contained within the Council's report, where it is made clear that the zoo had to be closed and animals moved. I expect that you can acknowledge that transportation in itself is somewhat traumatic for these animals. There are also comments about the native wildlife in the park within this report.
Regarding my earlier comment about estate agents, I'm pretty sure it was in a link you posted to promote your protest event.
It stated that the coucil's claim that Formula E would benefit local businesses was incorrect, as a poll done on behalf of the anti lobby found a number of businesses reported business was worse over the event weekend. These included an antiques shop, a dress shop and an estate agent.
Like I said, clutching at straws when those are your biggest objections!
Wandsworth Council has made numerous claims that local businesses would benefit from Formula-E. In the council's own report it seems to be conceded that they have no evidence to back this up apart from anecdotal accounts. And they do acknowledge that local businesses were excluded from benefitting from the event. As there was no data on this issue local businesses were asked about their views of Formula-E. You have been extremely selective in what you have chosen to quote - I don't see why a dress shop, antiques shop or estate agents shouldn't have legitimate concerns about the event. Either way, here are a few more enlightening sections of the same piece of text:

http://savebatterseapark.com/news/
save Battersea park web site wrote:Of over 40 food outlets, which included takeaways, restaurants, pubs, cafès and mini-marts, 31 saw no change and 7 said that business was worse or even terrible. Two pubs said they had had workers come in for a meal. One outlet saw extra trade but put it down to the good weather. The other 45 shops, which included a dress shop, an antiques shop, estate agents, internet cafè, and two mini-cab services, saw no change.
I think that is a more balanced view of the information as published.

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by atbattersea » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:27 pm

mungomuffit wrote:I mean one that just goes on and on like a dog with a bone, quoting and referencing until he's bored everyone witless with highly selective facts and figures. You remind me of at least one other person on this site 8-) .
I don't really know what you are talking about, but Wandsworth Council's own report acknowledges all of the problems I have noted. You can find the report here:

https://democracy.wandsworth.gov.uk/doc ... mula-E.pdf

I don't believe I have been selective in what I have stated, I have just countered the Council's rahrah brigade.

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by this_is_cat » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:39 pm

The anti-formula e brigade really scored an own goal with the tone of their campaign.
It was totally hysterical and frankly insulting to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.
Claims it was a health and safety disaster - in the face of not one single safety incident over the entire assembly/event/disassembly time! I've seen several ambulances called to the adventure playground on a single afternoon but no one is calling that a 'health and safety disaster zone' and calling for it to be banned, despite being demonstrably more dangerous!

It is also somewhat ironic that 'atbattersea' is positioning themself as a beacon of facts and figures while promoting a website and petition that claims things like 'wildlife were traumatised'
AtBattersea, please can you share the credentials of the vet who diagnosed the trauma, and also the details of the diagnosed animals?

Regarding my earlier comment about estate agents, I'm pretty sure it was in a link you posted to promote your protest event.
It stated that the coucil's claim that Formula E would benefit local businesses was incorrect, as a poll done on behalf of the anti lobby found a number of businesses reported business was worse over the event weekend. These included an antiques shop, a dress shop and an estate agent.
Like I said, clutching at straws when those are your biggest objections!

I actually clicked on the links you originally posted to learn more about the objections, coming from a neutral stance.
I'm afraid the site firmly polarised my support for it, because the objections were an act of fiction.
Claims the park was 'vandalised' do not tally with my daily experiences, and the more I read, the more absurd the claims became, which totally alienated me from the entire thing.

Your group badly misjudged this one, I'm afraid.

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by atbattersea » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:57 am

mungomuffit wrote:Please don't be/come one of those annoying men that are on NVN!
You mean one that states the facts and finds verification for those, rather than someone who doesn't and cannot!?

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by atbattersea » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:40 am

mungomuffit wrote:Battersea Park is much bigger than Clapham Common, surely.
They are about the same size, take a look on a map, it should be clear enough.
Plus it's only a section of the park that was closed for 4 days.
Um, sure it was a "section", but that section comprised about 95% of the park. And it was not just four days, access to the park was limited for nearly three weeks. This is acknowledged in Wandsworth Council's own report on the event - it's no use arguing against this point when both sides affectively agree that this was the case.
I was able to walk and drive along (that was great fun) the Formula E track while it was being set up - they didn't close it down.
I'm not sure how you were able to drive along the track, given that most of Carriage Drive is closed to traffic even during normal opening of the park. My personal experience was that construction traffic was on the "track" for a period of about three weeks. During this period access to Carriage Drive was mostly blocked by fencing, apart from a few crossing points and areas where pedestrians were directed to pass through construction and storage areas.

There are plenty of photos of this disruption online. Perhaps you can post some images of you walking and driving around the park at this time?
See how it's done atbattersea? I can post without feeling I need to drag in quotes from previous posts - hopefully you can follow ;) .
You need to brush-up on your netiquette.

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by papinian » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:32 am

mungomuffit wrote:Battersea Park is much bigger than Clapham Common, surely.
Battersea Park: 200 acres
http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/20052 ... ersea_park

Clapham Common: 220 acres
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clapham_Common

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by atbattersea » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:24 am

this_is_cat wrote:Happy with this decision by WBC despite the frankly crazy objectors and their hysterical hyperbole.
The health and safety, and lack of access issues are not hyperbole. Take a look at the web site:

http://savebatterseapark.com

I'd really like a reference for your claim about estate agents - where can I find that printed or online elsewhere?
I live within sight of the park, walk my dog there twice a day and cycle through it twice a day also. The disruption was minimal and proportionate to the scale of the event.
I've no idea what part you were cycling through, but Carriage Drive was closed to cyclists for a period approaching three weeks. As this is the only part of the park where cycling is legal (though of course many cycle elsewhere) I'm thinking you must have been sharing the paths with pedestrians. This mixed traffic (cyclists, pedestrians, runners, etc) on narrow paths (particularly around the Millennium Arena) is even acknowledged as a problem by Wandsworth Council in the report on the event.

In fact, all of the health and safety and access issues are acknowledged by the Council in the same report. That's not hyperbole, that's the pro-Formula-E whitewash.
Friends that attended with us enjoyed it (except for the rain on the Sunday but even atbattersea can't blame the organisers for that!)
Really happy to engage with you on the real issues, but even Ravi Govindia doesn't have control over the weather.
and also that the borough will benefit from the money.
What has been put to me (and I have no way of verifying or disproving this because Wandsworth Coucil will not publish the facts of the matter) is that the events already held in Battersea Park generate the entire parks budget for the whole borough. Isn't it enough that the parks are self-funding, without having to cross-subsidise other services?

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by atbattersea » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:09 am

Abbevillemumof3 wrote:Clapham Common gets partially closed for weeks over the summer do all sorts of festivals etc.
While Clapham Common is about the same size as Battersea Park the significant difference is that events on Clapham Common take up a small part of the common. When Formula-E was in Battersea Park - as Councillor Cooke notes - most of the work was on the perimeter road, this blocked access to around 95% of the park for around three weeks.

Imagine the events on Clapham Common fencing off all access from the major roads around it - that's how the park was. Of course, feel free to lobby Formula-E to hold its next event on Clapham Common (hopefully though Lambeth Council wouldn't act as rashly as Wandsworth)
Stop being a nimby (not in my backyard), stop moaning. You just have to suck it up sometimes. Visit a different park for a change over that w/e.
I am proud to be called a nimby on this issue - it is a local issue, and clearly only local people are affected. I hardly expect support from people that never visit the park. But we don't just want it taken somewhere else for others to suffer - we think it needs an appropriate venue. There are dozens of suitable racing tracks in the UK, there are probably other commercial venues that would love it too (ExCel, Wembley and the Olympic Park have been mentioned).

Your statement here clearly shows that you are completely missing the point. We are not campaigning about the closure of the park for a weekend, we are campaigning about the closure of the park for four days (probably excluding around 100,000 visitors), the health and safety issues and the blocking of access to the park over a three week period (which probably excluded another 100,000 visitors). Many people also had leisure and sports events cancelled in order to accommodate this event (in one case I know of where a children's event was cancelled at short notice by the organisers because of the health and safety and access issues).
And yes, my family attended. My 8 year old thought it was amazing.
The race, or the associated events? My seven year old was bored of the race after two laps. I've heard stories of motorsport fans going home and watching it on TV because the sight lines were so poor.

I don't doubt that some, many, or even most of the people visiting the park that weekend enjoyed the associated events - but those events could have been run without the race, and thus without the three weeks of disruption and limited access that ensued.

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by this_is_cat » Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:35 pm

Happy with this decision by WBC despite the frankly crazy objectors and their hysterical hyperbole. (One reason cited for not hosting it again was that local estate agents didn't report an increase in business over the weekend! Clutching at straws?!)

I live within sight of the park, walk my dog there twice a day and cycle through it twice a day also. The disruption was minimal and proportionate to the scale of the event.
Friends that attended with us enjoyed it (except for the rain on the Sunday but even atbattersea can't blame the organisers for that!)
Other friends watched it on TV and expressed interest in coming to see it next year, so I'm glad we will be able to host them next year, and also that the borough will benefit from the money.

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by Abbevillemumof3 » Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:33 pm

Clapham Common gets partially closed for weeks over the summer do all sorts of festivals etc. It's a good revenue earner for them and a percentage of the money gets reinvested back into the Common. The councils are having their budgets slashed so they are having to find revenue streams. Someone has to pay for the upkeep or improvements.

Stop being a nimby (not in my backyard), stop moaning. You just have to suck it up sometimes. Visit a different park for a change over that w/e.

And yes, my family attended. My 8 year old thought it was amazing.

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by atbattersea » Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:35 pm

mungomuffit wrote:abattersea - can you please stop quoting back…
Not really, that's what the quote button is for, so that responses can be contextualised. I would understand your complaint if I were quoting the entire lengthy post that someone else had made, but I'm not doing that, I'm just responding to particular points. I don't know what posts might appear between the post I would be responding to and my post itself.

That's essentially how chat rooms/bulletin boards work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum

Re: Councillors approve the return of Formula E

by kearly » Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:12 pm

Wandsworth Council is posting this to every community forum it can find. Having followed this closely from the first concrete block and HGV that entered Battersea Park, surprising everyone as the 1800 letter the Council sent out had mysteriously disappeared (along with the risk assessment apparently), I can confidently say that this report is full of fiction. The cars are not quiet and Formula E is boasting this year about the new noise of the cars which you can find on YouTube. It glosses over the fact that the supporters of the Pagoda were absolutely horrified by the treatment of this extremely important site, with Agag and his cars using it as a plinth to promote themselves. Then there's no mention that the zoo had to take emergency measures and close at the height of summer and move some sensitive species. But more to the point, it fails to adequately express how much danger Formula E and the Council put the general public in.

The disruption was not worth the paltry sum Wandsworth Council is putting back in to the park, nor the terrible precedent they are setting by selling the entire park to an external company at the peak of summer and the implications this will have for all other London parks. Over three weeks Formula E and Wandsworth exposed the public to significant daily danger as they turned Battersea Park in to a construction site and allowed children and the public to mix with heavy goods vehicles, forklift trucks and tons of concrete being shifted about. It's a huge surprise no one was seriously injured. Added to this the fact that to set it up required the creation of 8500 tons of new concrete blocks, 7585m of new metal barriers, 800 HGVs to deliver these, removal of mature trees to give the cars room and tarmacing over grass to create pit lanes etc. This was an insult to the senses, a revolting blow to the tranquility of what should be a haven of peace. 200 people protested outside the Scrutiny & Oversight Committee meeting last week at Wandsworth Town Hall, backed by Wandsworth Labour and the Green Party and an independent councillor. The Council's own survey showed 62% are against the event and 2700+ signatures were put forward. And yet the Council ignored all this and voted in favour of keeping it. Shame on them.

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