I AGREE

I can understand why this has become contentious, because talking about things like affairs is a taboo and shocking subject.

What I don't understand is why it has become an attack on mothers drinking coffee with their friends...

Why is the assumption that people having coffee live off their millionaire husbands? How do you know they aren't on maternity leave? Even if they are stay at home mums, overprivileged or otherwise, why is it wrong for them to meet up with a fellow adult for coffee?

All power to you for looking after your child and working, but you seem to imply that somehow makes you better than this coffee-drinking underclass. Isn't it about choice? Perhaps you would never take money from your husband. Good for you. But why shouldn't other people do that if it works for them?

I really hate this kind of reverse snobbery. If you work, all power to you - it's not an easy thing to do. But nor is staying home with the kids! Why does one side have to be ridiculed in this way?

Some people will just never understand as they haven't had to spend one day doing all the childcare. What's the point of being married and having kids if you never see any of them? You might as well be having an affair since you are pretty much leading separate lives anyway.

And if people like fatherof6 are just going to complain about having to work all the time to support their wife and kids, then perhaps they should have thought twice before they decided to bring life into this world.

Yes - i know this is going off topic a bit but i work in canary wharf when not on maternity leave and the coffee shops there are full of people having coffee all day long - either for business conversations or to get a break from the office for half an hour. I love that some people think stay at home parents round here are lazy because the cafes of northcote road are packed all day, but the office workers who pack out the City coffee shops are apparently not. good one!

I think it is a shame that a stay at home mum is reduced to being a lazy woman who lives off her husband, drinks coffee and gossips all day long whilst the nanny is sorting out the kids... Maybe there are a few woman like that, but most of them are not.

What about a woman who look after the children, the finances of the household (yes for some this is their life not just their husband), some also help in the family business (without any pay I should stress as it is not "official"), etc.

The post from fatherof6 and the last one are amazing given the fact we live in the XXIst century - I am amazed that there are still some people who thinks like that, so so so old fashion mysoginy...

In most relationship the couple (a man and a woman, or two women, or two men) work as a team. If it makes sense for one of them not to work in a job but to be in charge of the Home (capital H) including kids, house and so on (food, laundry, ...) well then be it. It doesn't make this person less of a human being. This person may not contribute financially but does contribute economically (and all economists would actually agree).

And more importantly, this person (a man or a woman, as there are more and more men who makes the choice of looking after their children) who stays at home for the kids have a very big job and massive responsibilities: They are raising the next generation... Something to think about, don't you think?

So if once a day they drink some coffee, fair enough... Those who goes to work also have a coffee break during the day.

For the records, I am a stay at home mum, a facilitator, head of logistics and supply chain management, an entertainer, a teacher/educator, a moderator, a chef (and I gave myself some michelin stars yes!), a cleaner, a driver (I don't have a car but I buse the bus or my feet so just the same) and a personal shopper! And just to mention in passing, I also work part time outside the house!!!

It would be nice if some would stop be so judgemental.

father of 6 you are so right! i have only just moved to "nappy vally" and all i see every day is mums walking up and down northcote road gossiping, drinking coffee and thinking of what to do with the day.

I have a 2 year old child. My husband has an amazing job that gives us a fab life but i don't just sit around claiming i'm a "stay at home mum" i work from home (while watching max too).

i could never give up work and have my husband give me spening money like i am a child... and at the end of the day i have to show him what i spend my money on NOT GOING TO HAPPEN EVER!!

as for the cheating bit...... go ahead why not THEY ALWAYS DO SO NOW ITS YOUR TURN

Shocked shocked shocked by fatherof6's comments. I have met many women in this area and a large percentage earn as much money or more than their partners before and after maternity. Nappyvalley is full of female lawyers, doctors, barristers, consultants... The fact that you are still not aware that women do better at school and University is shocking. We sometimes do worse at work because we are less cutthroat. That is why we have less money in general. Because we are less prepared to sell our soul.

KiwiAmanda - sounds like you've been really hurt in the past .

I am reeling slightly at the vehemence of your opinion - but I think the crucial point you raise is your last one - COMMUNICATE, COMMUNICATE, COMMUNICATE.

If communication completely breaks down between a couple (in conjunction with dishonesty with oneself and with one's partner) then the relationship needs either to be completely readdressed and all of the offending issues identified and addressed mutually with residual blame or resentment, OR, the relationship is actually a sham and it is only fair to to be honest with your partner and GET OUT before you break hearts and confuse your children.

Children pick up changes in us far more than we are likely to admit. They will KNOW when things aren't right (or different) and their behaviour will almost definitely start to reflect this.

I know. I made this mistake. Step 1 - be honest with yourself and conduct yourself with integrity. Step 2 - act accordingly. Step 3 - be honest in all of your relationships.

That way, you can face the consequences with your head held high. Sue Atkins of Positive Parents recently suggested that "Imagine looking back on this period of your life when you're in your rocking chair at 90. What are your memories? Did you conduct yourself in a way that you can now defend and feel proud of?" (paraphrased by me).
If you can, then you are acting with dignity, respect and integrity. If you can't, then something's got to give....!

I have long thought about what I would do if I found out a friend's husband was cheating on her, given the possible repercussions ranging from losing a friend to breaking up a home, and I have come to the conclusion that I would tell them as I would want to know if it were me being cheated on. I was cheated on by a boyfriend and it is the most humiliating feeling when you find out other people knew, especially those that saw you as a couple on a regular basis. For a start, I wouldn't want to be with someone who had the lack of respect to cheat on me and to lie regularly to my face. I have too much pride in myself to be looked at like a victim by those 'in the know' and most importantly, know I can do better than being with someone who would willingly break my heart.
As woman, we (and the magazines) are continually telling each other that we deserve to be treated with respect and should be with the type of men who support and love us like our parents would hope for us, like we hope for our children.
So it really disturbs me to read this post and the sympathetic responses to what I think is a selfish woman who is only thinking of herself and her needs. We crucify men for not recognising our need to be loved and appreciated, and yet here you lot are trying to justify an affair between a married man and a married woman! What makes you think you're so special that you get to break the rules and deserve the love of not one but two men? Given the choice, do you think your husband would want to be with a cheating wife? Doubtful. So why don't you stop thinking about yourself for once and think about him? Given the choice, maybe he might be happier finding someone else too. Or most likely he would want to work hard to save his marriage. Why don’t you grow up and talk to him first before doing something you’ll most likely end up regretting.

Gosh this is a really interesting thread; I'm impressed with the candour with which posters have shared their experiences and opinions- - thank you all! Before anyone flames ME, btw, I would respectfully request that you don't have to jump down my throat or anyone's in order to express your opinion about what I'm about to say. We may all have strong gut reactions to other people's posts, but we can choose to respond thoughtfully and recognising that we all walk in our own shoes and not other peoples...

I have been involved in various aspects of extra marital activities: my (x)husband has had more casual sex with women (fatherof6 - it might tickle you to know that he was working his socks off in finance at the time ..) than even I know about. He admitted that he couldn't say no, although it was apparently always the women who made a move on him....*coughs discreetly*.

In my relationship before my (x)husband, my partner and I BOTH had affairs/sex outside our relationship. Not at first, but really we were only together because we had a child (unexpectedly and very young) - and we simply should never had stayed together. That partner was having a relationship with a much younger (and totally gorgeous and fit) woman but wouldn't admit it. I was so lonely and NOT IN LOVE with him, that I had a series of casual relationships (And some very good, enlightening sex I might add) whilst neither he nor I would bite the bullet and end our relationship.

After becoming a total work widow to my husband, who was not only workaholic but an extremely heavy drinker, and having two children with him, it became apparent to me that I was only ever seeing him (and he was usually drunk then) for about an hour a week. We were living on a building site (for years and years and years), I'd given up work to be a SAHM (mutual agreement), and it had gone horribly horribly wrong. We didn't even have a relationship to work on, really.

His idea of what I should be doing was "staying at home and cleaning, cooking, looking after the baby" (I've toned it down), When I started my own business because he gave me no housekeeping (because he'd mortgaged himself up to the hilt, was living on credit card shuffling and needed all of his money to buy share options), he told me that it was a waste of my time and that I should get back to the housework.

Hmmmm. Something had to give.

I'd got myself married with this utterly unrealistic view that getting married would genuinely be the icing on the cake, would give stability to future children, would knit me into middle class acceptability that I'd been brought up to aspire to (my mother was thrilled) and that my husband also aspired to (we're both middleclass, privately educated, etc), etc. So this was the RIGHT THING TO DO, OBVIOUSLY.....

God, I was so wrong. I am just as responsible for the complete disaster of a marriage (that ended up including violence, sexual assaults, etc) as my husband was. But I kept plodding on, burying my head in being busy with my babies, my business, church activities, housework, etc., telling myself that this was what marriage was about, - a long term commitment, the rough with the smooth, etc.. What a schmuck.

I was avoiding the fact that neither of us could communicate effectively nor honestly nor non-confrontationally. I was avoiding the fact that I really didn't enjoy sex with him that much, if at all. It had become completely perfunctory. It was a relief to have this time on my own I now realise - it probably kept us together longer that it should have otherwise!

So I found some solace (and musical enjoyment) in my local church. This was a source of conflict too, btw. And then, one day, I met the person who would utterly change my life. Really, UTTERLY.

She was new to the church, in a relationship and looking for new friends. I was there. I became her new friend. And then, after a few months of increasingly close friendship, I realised that I was completely smitten with her.

To cut a long story short, we became involved in a sexual relationship ( ) and we both absolutely swore we'd NEVER leave our respective partners and this was just a fling, etc, etc.

WRONG AGAIN. After a year of knowing her and then becoming involved with her, I knew I was in love (and it was mutual). We spent as much time as possible together and she made my heart sing a brand new song. Turned my life upside down and inside out, really.

I told my husband about her. He already knew we were close friends and he knew her too. We ended up trying a menage a trois (really) but it didn't work because my husband was just in the way and I was too scared to admit it.

It got nasty between him and me - but I won't dwell on that - it was both our fault/responsibility.

In the end, I left him, she'd already left her girlfriend and we (she and I ) are in a long term relationship that is in the open to everyone. We really are deeply in love.

I realise my experience is probably not typical of anyone else's experience here (although maybe it is...?) - and that discovering my sexuality wasn't quite what I'd assumed it was all those years (which explains now why I found straight sex so totally unfulfilling...sigh!) puts a different complexion on things from most of the posters. It also rather draws a line under the possibility of returning to my marriage!

So for me, there was more than marital neglect (and co-dependency and god knows what else) going on in my marriage to push me into the arms of another; there was also my discovery of my sexuality.

But I guess after all this rambling what I'm trying to say is: I KNOW that I have caused a lot of heartache to my husband, who until very recently, would have had me back like a shot and would have dumped his girlfriend for me. I am so sorry for the tears he has shed and the desperation he has felt. I am so sorry for the disruption it's caused to my children's relationship with their father. He (chooses to) hardly ever see them - although this is very slowly, tentatively improving. I am sorry for getting married in the first place, actually, given that I now realise I'd been barking up the wrong tree for years. And there's nothing my husband can do about that one, I afraid.

My husband and I have been in "understanding what went wrong" therapy together for over a year now, btw. And I've been in individual therapy for longer than that (he approved of this, thinking it would turn me straight !).

Be very very careful before you embark upon an extra marital affair. Ask yourself why it is easier/more exciting, etc to try the thrill of the new than to reinvigorate your relationship with the person you married. Ironic that I should be saying that, I guess - but these are things that I have struggled with myself. I feel very sad to have a failed marriage. That is NOT what I had in mind when I married him. I am appalled that I have hurt him so much.

I do think that that you have to be able to be very strictly compartmentalised in your life if you are going to have an affair - both emotionally and practically speaking. You are going to have to remember every lie you've told, ALL the time, forever. You are going to have to remember to use the right name (!) to the right person, you are going to live a life of at least two halves, if not even most disconnected than that. What if if your fling is a parent locally?! Never, ever, meet up in your home territories unless nobody knows you. You'll be fretting over texts, emails, evidence of extra marital activities of any sort. Don't start changing your appearance. Don't start looking/being happier - your husband will smell a rat instantly. Believe me, the pressure can be quite intense - and sure the buzz and ego trip of being fancied is very seductive and enjoyable - but when I was embarking on my first round of infidelity, I finally realised that I was the one who was looking for love still, I was the one who felt cheapened and lost even more of my self esteem, I was the one who felt hollow and ashamed of myself. The guys I had sex with, on the other hand, had a very nice time and went back to their wives...

Sorry so long - but I feel quite experienced in this area. Not that I'm proud of it - it's taken me to meet an amazing woman to turn my life round into something I can live with pride, however hard it is to be a newly out mum at the school gates.

I hope this helps anyone who's in doubt about affairs (And their sexuality, too). DM me if you like.

Just again another side of the story, I am single and have been Internet dating for several years. I have spent many an evening listening to men complaining about not getting enough affection, spark, or passion in their lives. I personally wont have an affair with a married man because all I can see is the wife and I can't put another woman through that level of pain. However, I really am not judgemental, well except to some men who clearly don't seem to have any feelings about their wife at all.
I once met someone online, who was married, very decent, hard working, intelligent, honest(!!), deeply caring and passionate. After a while we stayed online friends and he became more and more honest. Eventually after a year of chatting and me slowly getting information from
him I found out he had a spreadsheet of all the women he slept with, several of which at the same time, all of whom believed he was the only one. Some were married some were single, the single ones I laughed at because when he turned up to meet one of them, two happened to be friends and they both turned up and discovered his infidelity. They had the audacity to be outraged with him! Having an affair is starting a life of lies, and lies don't sit well with our bodies, we get Ill from
lying. This married man had stomach problems. I think you may had already decided to do it before you posted and that is why you are so upset now because there isn't one person on here who says it works out in the end. Which I am relieved about because being single I still want to believe in marriage!! Join a dating site like illicit affairs and talk to the married men on there. That will soon cheer you up when you see how low these men will go! The only way to really feel good about yourself is to get out and do some exercise, lose some weight, get a job that rewards you emotionally, try doing two hours of volunatary work a week, or whatever it is that will inspire and reward you because when you feel satisfied within you feel happy.

oh and I forgot to ask - have you thought about how you would feel if it was your husband writing this post and considering an affair? That's not meant in a judgey, bitchy tone but just as another question to ask yourself - maybe to get to the bottom of your real feelings about him? Good luck....

Father of 6, I can understand your grieviances, but I think the women you single out as "marrying into money" exist more in the realms of the tabloids than Nappy Valley.

I am a stay at home mum, but like many posters on here, I gave up a successful career to be in this position. (Women can make money too) I returned to work full time after my son was born, only to leave again because my husband HATED it. Yes, he works all hours, but yes, he also enjoys it! Our home is happier and more balanced because the kids get some stability and see at least one of their parents on a daily basis, and no, we dont have a nanny!!!

I'm not in the market for an affair, but neither do I judge anyone who has considered it. Leaving work can give you a real identity crisis and wives need a hug not telling how good they have got it! Many of those coffee drinking women you see are lonely, tired and wish that their husbands would put in less hours and invest more in family time. Sadly, the cost of living in London means thats not often possible. (And dont lets get started about private schooling as we all know what the catchment situation around here is like.)

This is not a "woe me" post and I consider myself lucky not to have to work and fortunate to have a great husband. What I'm trying to say is that everyone's circumstances are different and everyone finds their own path. Raising small children is tough for all parties invoved and throwing stones at each other just makes things worse. I dont think any posters have been trying to advocate going out and having affairs, they have just been incredibly open and honest about their own experiences which has given the OP some different perspectives to think about.

There are alot of very sad stories here and it's certainly an inflammatory subject. It's very difficult to reignite a flame if the other person involved is simply disinterested, lazy or just plain knackered and it takes both of you to make it work. I'm not sure that an affair will 'fix' a marriage that has got to a point where one or both of the partners are considering an outside 'boost' and I think if the affair is discovered there's going to be alot of hurt on all sides - including to any children involved. I know of two people who've had affairs - both were found out - one is on her fourth marriage, the other is still with her original husband but it's been a long, painful road although in the end they both feel that it brought all the problems out in the open to be dealt with. As for father of six, I think you're making a huge, ill-informed supposition in believing that all the women on here are a) rich and b) don't work. Your contribution to the discussion has been at best insulting. And your spelling/typing is appalling.

My post was aimed at woman that married into "money". As in a banker, lawyer or a successful business man. Who have all the "extras" 4x4 range rovers,cleaners,gardeners,a nice house with lots of bedrooms, an allowance lol and to top it off a nanny to help!! Help with the kids that you left work to look after??

Not those mum's that struggle in a poor family so please don't take offence.

I have 6 children and let me reassure you I know just how hard it is. So I don't need you crying to me on here about how important women are to the family because I know my wife is the most amazing woman.

My point was quite simple and if there was more men on this site (but they are to busy working there butts off to feed you all) then they would all agree with me.

When you want the finer things in life and the best for your children you sacrifice things to have that. What did you think you would marry this successful man and have all the chains and whistles too? Really.?

Your children grown up without really seeing there dads because they work ridicules hours so that they can go to privet school and come home to a nice house (with an ungrateful wife answering the door) who's thinking about having an affair!

Let's be honest if your thinking about having an affair then he probably ALREADY IS.

So go for it what do you really have to lose ?