@Great fields - do you mind sharing the names of the public and private schools you are referencing. I am a new mom to the area, trying to navigate a very unfamiliar landscape. Thanks

Em 75. I don’t recognise your experiences either in our local state primary.
We relocated from NY to sw11 4 years ago. At the time there were no state options available for our year 4 at the time so we moved her to a local prep and my year 2 we managed to get into our local state school and she is now in year 6. We saw pros and cons of both to be honest. I definitely wouldn’t say the prep was better experience from an all round perspective. The notable differences we saw were sport - mostly those sports that the state couldn’t offer.. like swimming but at our state they had a good daily offering. The other difference was the academic push for 11 plus which to be honest was at the detriment of a balanced curriculum and the overall happiness of our child. Our state year 6 child is in our experience had a much more enriching & happy educational experience the last couple of years than our privately educated child.
We moved our eldest to state secondary. She stormed year 7 having covered much more particularly in maths and English for the 11 plus but she’s now in year 8 and it’s levelled out. I understand from friends in private that the kids that moved state to private have also caught up.
If a big focus is on academics and harbouring for the 11 plus then preps do that well but I think there’s not so much difference in the end results between the privates and the top state streams at secondary if you have a focused child who has a nurturing and encouraging home environment. The levelling up previously mentioned will also help account for any differences when it comes to university admissions.
For us we wanted to keep our money in our pockets. I think our kids futures are looking worrying…

I was actually referencing state secondary but having been in state primary until recently I honestly don’t recognise any of those experiences you mention. I would be disappointed with that too. The expectations at the primary were so high. We actually sat the 11 plus anyway but just for experience and passed with minimal tutoring. The maths classes were set, the sport was phenomenal & teaching was great too. I felt they knew my child inside out. I also felt grateful that although my child sat the 11 plus there was no pressure to pass and because there wasn’t endless prep and past papers they had a happy fulfilled year 5 and 6 with a broader curriculum…

The one caveat here is that we moved from sw18 to Elmbridge Surrey a few years back… so perhaps we are not comparing like to like.

Tia3 - are your comments re: primary or secondary education?

I have a son in year 5 state primary but looking at private secondaries. So I have no experience of state secondaries but certainly don't recognise these points for our state primary - " learning from others , less spoon fed , more independent learning, character building etc win for me."

Character building how exactly? Our state primary stopped spelling tests last year as "it was upsetting some children who didn't get good marks". So they stopped all testing for all. There are no tests, no pressure and no difficult tasks that need to be accomplished, no visible awards. My son is now studying hard for 11+ so sometimes he doesn't do school set homework or does it hastily. He is never told off for not doing it or for doing it badly. To be honest I find it to be the opposite of character building. And less spoon fed? And more independent learning? I can't see any independent learning to be honest. Or any encouragement to do more than set in class. Perhaps it's true for secondaries? I'm told by other parents that in the past they used to set quarterly projects which allowed for some creativity and independent research but not anymore. Plus I'm not sure how much they learn from others. These points all sound good but a bit empty to be honest. I
just can't see how they can be back up with any examples.

As I say, I have no experience of secondaries and perhaps we are just bitterly disappointed with our primary

We have 2 children in private education, one primary and one secondary. My husband is an accountant and has said the “cost” of private education has increased significantly to our family since the erosion of the lifetime allowance and the increase to £60k contribution allowance each.
If you are able to pay school feels and contribute £60k each (£120k) to your pension then you can consider school fees as a net cost of £50k. If you can’t though you need to gross this up so £50k school fees per annum (2 kids) is an actual cost of nearer £90k per year - if you put the fees £50k money into your pension instead. £90k x 10 years plus cumulative growth and fee increases means your private education for 2 kids is now costing in the region of £1.2-1.5m. Pensions come with IHT benefits for passing to your children but more importantly will provide an income in retirement of more than £50k per annum. The pot will also continue to grow ..
This will all be irrelevant to the super wealthy but those who are sacrificing a lot it’s worth doing some financial planning.
Is it worth it? I don’t know - we are too late to extract ourselves but from a solely financial perspective my children will have to earn a significant amount more than their state school friends to make the differential worth it . It will boil down in the future as to whether giving them a private education or a mortgage free house / flat is a better investment.

It’s good to see some pro private posts (finally)..
However, not sure I fully endorse all the points some are valid, thankfully otherwise you really would be wasting all your money.
smaller class sizes are a pro - especially for a child who is struggling academically or otherwise. For a bright kid it’s less of an issue.
Disruptive kids - yes probably bigger issue in state primary but much Less of an issue in state secondary where kids are streamed.
Sport - my son does sport every morning before school (runs a mile) and after school clubs at lunch and after school. Definitely not concerned on this front.
Some other points around educational enrichment - not sure I buy this - benefits in previous posts of: learning from others , less spoon fed , more independent learning, character building etc win for me.
I think the point of some of the posts (albeit not the original one) is not that there are some advantages of private education but whether at this point in time whether it’s worth the money given the changing macro environment…for 2 kids for ten years you are looking at over £1m pounds once you gross this up.
That said please do keep them private as the more that move state will add to my taxes…
I wonder how many people on this thread in years to come will look back and think “if only”..

I'm so glad you've posted Great Fields as my experience is spookily similar and I agree with everything you say.

The fees' increases hurt us badly I can't lie, as we also have an older daughter in a private senior school and their fees are up too.

We moved our son this year from a very popular local state primary to a very good local prep school. Like your daughter, he is also in year 4 so we moved after year 3. The difference is massive. We are still friends with many people from the old school and have a chance to compare to what he does to what their children do and it only reinforces our decision. As you say, they pretty much work a year ahead and, what I think makes a very big difference, they stream the kids so each kid works according to his / her ability, in a group of peers who have similar level so the lessons are better and they achieve much more. State schools teach "to the middle" and my son was very bored last year and, although he loved his friends, he had little interest in learning and working. He is incredibly engaged and proud of his results now.

You also make a very valid point about a different work ethic. Yes, as others pointed out, work ethic comes from home but not only. They spend most of their day at school and school has an enormous impact here. My experience is that state schools have very low expectations of children, children need to pass SATs and be "good enough". Noone is going to sweat to make them the best they can be if they are already good enough. My son is very motivated by tests, he wants to get full marks. Every homework is marked and feedback is given and, again, he strives to do his best for this feedback. He is also surrounded by peers who want the same and, as hard work is expected and rewarded, they all feed off each other. Sloppy homework or class work is not accepted, bad behaviour is not tolerated and the classes are smaller so it's easier to ensure it.

My older daugther went through the same state school and I can really compare how different things are. Everyone in her class who wanted to do 11+ tutored, many very heavily. I know one boy who had four different tutors. Many attended special weekend schools and classes to prep. I tutored my daughter too as I had no choice but I didn't find it ideal. She was very tired by 4-5pm when the school ended. As you say, she spent the best hours of the day doing "easy work" and then had to do the hard work at 4-5pm plus weekend homework and practice papers. It was relentless. Her year 5 was awful and she hated it. I still have many of her old practice tests and can compare what I used to do with her in year 4 and what my son does now - based on this I really don't plan to tutor and don't anticipate much need for it.

I also agree that daily sport is very important. I think, perhaps especially for the boys, it makes them work better and be more focused.

So, to sum up, we are also very upset about the fees' increases, I think all of us in the private sector are badly hit by them... But, sadly, I don't agree, based on extensive personal experience which allows me to really compare things like for like, that state education is as good as private if you have a good private school. I would love it to be true, my wallet would love it to be true, but it's just not true and, with the teaching profession and recruitment in crisis, I fear the gap is only widening.

Hi all, more cents worth:

1) I've had a good experience in my outstanding state school. I loved the community and the parents as well as the teachers. We have kept all our state school friends and have playdates with everyone - private and state. I am in a good position to compare the pros and cons.

2) I chose a selective private school with large fields - no point in crowding the kids (with fancy uniforms) into faciilites that are equal to the state schools' ! If we were going to pay, it would have to look like Hogwarts.

3) Of course kids should help each other and teach each other, but as the other person said - able kids have needs and my daughter learnt nothing in year 3 because the school kept on looking at the bottom and redoing all the learning that we covered already during lockdown. She had a great time teaching others and reading books during class, but with no Gifted and Talented programe or any resources to stretch the kids, how could she achieve?

4) Other state school kids I know now are working super hard with tuition to be stretched at home, after a full day of school (teaching the other kids lol). Fortunately, I am so lucky to have a child who can enjoy the time after school because school covers everything (ok, there is one hour of homework, then clubs and fun). All the mental gymnastics happen from 9am-3pm, not 3-10pm! We don't really befriend the psychopathic parents who tutor their private school kids within an inch of their lives after school.

5) Agree that hard work ethic comes from home, BUT if everyone is studying hard, one gets swept up in the tide - same with sports. Peer pressure works boths ways and it makes life easier.

5) Yes, in the our state school we worked hard with all the fund raising and improvements and the PTA, but it's still not better in the education stakes. (It is better in the local community stakes though). You have more 'middle class' and 'good families' in nappyvalley, but what any parent wants is a good education, and that comes with streaming, selecting and pushing, which state schools don't do. Most private schools are teaching one year ahead, even the non selective ones.

6) If you can afford the private school fees, I would recommend starting out in state school until year 3/4 so that your kids hang out with all types, and then move them to a private with good facilities as they get older when the swearing/bullying/effects of pad parenting come up. I think that will enable your children to relate to all types - AND as @Roundandaround says - relating to everyone is so important. Kids also learn that by watching their parents.

On a micro level, I've totally given up my socialist ways and went private. On a macro level, I should've kept my kids in state to increase the ofsead ratings and even out the 'ability gap'. But who is willing to do that to their kids when they have options?

Great fields, you have had a good experience moving your children from state to private, but there is private and private, and state and state, ignoring the Ofsted ratings.

Fully agree about non-sporty kids getting active and doing sport. Daily sport sound utopic and it is great that your children's school does this, but that is not what happens at every private school. For example Finton has a tiny playground, as does HornsbyHouse, and the kids deffo don't go for a run every morning!

Completely agree about drama and clowning around in the classroom. My child wants to give up a subject because the teacher of that subject is too soft to keep two disruptive kids in order and they ruin it for all the others. Able children also have needs. Bad parenting also means that when teachers in state sector try to clamp down on bad behaviour in a class of 30 pupils there is a risk that parents come into school and accuse the teacher of picking on their child.

But I still believe that we should have more and better state primaries as LHL describes with lots of involved parents. Wandsworth has sold off more than a couple of school buildings to private schools or developers so where would these would be based? We could have had one on Burntwood Lane, but guess what, that land has been sold to developers for a modern living experience (flats).

On a more philosophical level you raise a good point about whether parents and society want education to be a route to university entrance, or a process to expose developing minds to multiple stimuli and different ways of thinking, rigour of learning, expansion of perspective, the opportunity to explore in depth subjects that grip and motivate. We all want the second when we pay school fees, but we actually demand and measure success against the first.

While I find some of the points from @Great fields interesting (i.e. sports, education value being measurable beyond jobs and Oxbridge places) I find some very troubling / quite limited to possibly having a bad experience in previous school which happened to be a State school.

I am not from the UK and didn't have access to what qualifies here as elite education. I think the "macro" implications of different levels of ability a bit short sided, kids benefit immensely from learning how to teach others. While I didnt go to Oxbridge I find my ability to connect and communicate with people from all audiences a real asset to my career.

While I hear the point on the ability of private schools to select their pupils I am pretty sure that as businesses, if they need more pupils they will accept whoever can meet their price points. I also disagree you need to go to a private school to learn the value of hard work. My kids learn that at home.

Earlier in the thread an excellent point was made about the existing inequalities in the state system and I wholeheartedly agree. That to me is the bigger issue. I am not even talking about fancy sport grounds. My kids go to an outstanding state school, the amount of involvement from the parents and community to make that work is also outstanding. We are so very lucky we are able to mobilise so much of our time and resources to fundraise for the school and ensure we are equipping them with the best chances of success. That for what is already an oversubscribed and well funded school that is part of a trust. It's simply not fair for schools in more deprived areas that have simply less access to resources.

Just my 2 cents worth :

From a parent who moved their kids from an outstanding state school into a selective private.

1) Those playing fields and fixtures and whatnot and the common, normalised interest in sport is something you can't buy on weekends. My daughter hates sport, but has to play and exercise because everyone is into it in her private school and it's just normal to go for a run every morning. The little concrete patch in my state school didn't cut it, no matter how lovely the teachers and parents were.

Going for sport once a week on the weekends does not work - it has to be a daily thing.

2) I'm sorry to say, but those disruptive kids (because of bad parenting) that cause the evacuation of the playgrounds for every tantrum and the cancellation of school trips because of their emotions just do not pass the exams to get into the good private schools. I would like my kids to have the opportunity to do some learning without daily drama.

3) On a macro level, high achieving kids should be with low achieving kids and they will teach those who need help and help the entire population progress in reading and writing. On a family level, I found my kids spending all their time helping out the other kids and they were so bored with school. Moving them made them shine.

4) Going to a good school is important to get a good education. An education develops the mind. I cannot believe how nobody mentions this in the discussion. They are only speaking about Oxbridge and jobs. The confidence, the Latin (!!) the ability to read original biblical texts - the normalisation of working hard, studying, and performing under pressure, not to mention just MORE knowledge and learning given the different objectives of schools (private school prep for 11+ exams, state schools do not have such targets). This matters. They can chose to be graffiti artists and homemakers and it will still be worth it.

4) Private schools provide education and parents pay for them. Can you imagine if all the private school kids moved back to the state schools? Imagine the 10000 kids looking for places. The borough will be bankrupt and we will pay the equivalent in increased council tax - and council tax hits EVERYONE, including the low income families. Maybe we are doing a service being the suckers who pay for our kids' education.

Rubysmum is right. The differentiation between state schools and private schools in this borough is bigger than other boroughs /counties where some state schools have facilities and academics to rival private schools. We don’t have multiple outstanding state schools in this borough and hence people go private which in turn impacts the academic success of these schools. It will change but this thread highlights an issue which is less prevalent in other areas like Surrey & Hertfordshire as examples - where similar middle class families wouldn’t even consider a private education because the state education is comparable. It’s one of the reasons why families move out.

Which schools are failing though? I don't think there are any failing in our area....

I think that this thread misses the point.  The issue is not with Private schools but rather the fact there is so much inequality within the state sector.  Some state schools are amazing - some are not. I went to an absolutely terrible state school in the 80s.  My sibling was predicted 1 CSE at 16 and at this point, we moved house and I was able to get a place at an old school Grammar school (through school report rather than 11+ which I would have failed) where I was able to catch up.  

When the posters here talk about the advantages of state education, they are talking about the 'Ofsted outstanding' type of schools rather than the failing schools.  If private schools become demonized then the pressure on state schools perceived to be 'outstanding' will increase leading to more inequality.  Middle-class parents (of which I am definitely one) are super-anxious and over worry about everything.  We are also over-involved in our children's education.  The kids I know who attend state secondary schools are all tutored in areas that they are struggling in, parents spend hours and hours on homework and they all have numerous extracurricular activities.  The parents are also pretty punchy about approaching the school is they are not happy with a teaching approach/homework etc.... Having sent my kids to a local state primary , it was the middle class parents who always had a very important issue which they had to discuss urgently with the teacher or who would demand that the teacher focus on their child's issue.  If at least some of these children go to a fee-paying school then there is more time for teachers to help those who don't necessarily have parents advocating for them.





 

Dudette - I think you make some valid points but having been to private school myself and sent my kids too I think the overall feeling is that those advantages eg contacts, nice and personable, happy etc are just not enough to justify the exorbitant fees.
The country is levelling up not just in the workplace, schools and uni but in sports clubs. My friend runs a cricket club where a large number of county placement went to state school pupils as they presumed they got less practice at school hence thought they must be “more” talented than those at private school. It’s become infiltrated into society that those achieving well at state schools are harder working, less spoon fed, more resilient & ambitious. The confidence factor - the gift I thought I was giving my kids is no longer relevant. It’s outweighed by the other stronger attributes above that are more desirable . Same with “contacts” - this is not a thing in finance, law - it’s not permitted and no such thing as work placements etc. yes some industries maybe still more lenient but the direction of travel is set. Not only are you setting yourselves back a small fortune you might not be doing the best all round.
Interesting times all round…