PS Forgot to mention: faith schools are among the most socially selective.. Search the Sutton Trust website for details.

Schoolquestions wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 8:43 amI frankly find out of place calling the jesuits a sect. They are the largest Catholic religious order dating back to the XVI century and with a vital role in education for centuries.

Best not to get into all the cases of sexual abuse covered up by the Jesuits in their "vital role in education", then...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_ab ... y_of_Jesus

Bad apples will always exist anywhere, but when they are covered by the institution it becomes a problem with the institution, and not with some isolated cases

 

@muddyboots, are you for real???

"
So I wish to reverse the argument!
Why is a child in a state school treated differently just because it happens to attend a religious STATE school. If they allow state funded religious schools they should find them equally. Or get rid of them. This is unfair to me .
"

Education is a crucial service. Circa 1/3 of state-funded schools are faith schools. The comparison with services you can't use, like specialist schools, is either silly or in bad faith.

Imagine the same happening with, I don't know, hospitals.
Let's say you get injured and have to rush to the local A&E. You would really like to go to a non-faith-based hospital, but, unfortunately, the closest one to you happens to be a "Christian" hospital.
When you register, the first question they ask you is if you are a Christian.
You say no, so they send you to a longer queue because Christians get a priority queue.

Your taxes pay for the staff of both Christian and non-Christian hospitals.
It is not your fault if the non-faith hospital is either too far or crumbling down.
The fact that the churches tend to own the buildings is irrelevant  - you are still discriminated in the provision of a basic service your taxes pay for.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS WITH STATE EDUCATION!!!

@muddyboots, how would you like the same happening with hospitals?  Surely you realise how nonsensical your point is?

And this is without even getting into whether, in a modern 21st century democracy, the concept of faith school even makes sense. Why do people need a religious school where they are insulated from people of different or, God forbid!, no faith? Why can't they do whatever religious indoctrination they want in the afternoon or at weekends?

 

Ah,ha! yes, "sect" does have a pejorative interpretation these days though I was using the word in the traditional sense: It is a section of the Catholic offering.

I frankly find out of place calling the jesuits a sect. They are the largest Catholic religious order dating back to the XVI century and with a vital role in education for centuries.

I have some knowledge of this (albeit I may be corrected). You will be surprised to learn that on average Catholic schools have an average of 30% of non-catholic pupils in attendance.  I think though in London that figure is a little lower because of over-subscribing. The Catholic Church has an agreement to accept non-catholics depending on how close they live to the school.

It's important to note non-catholics can be excused from religious services and religious lessons. Many non-catholic parents choose this and it seems to work well. Many others choose to let their children attend some catholic instruction where it imparts ethical teachings or activities of a charitable nature to the local community. Each school has it's own arrangements. Opt-out non catholics are supervised by a teacher during such times and are expected to do course work, or play chess or maths games. So the old worry of indoctrination is an old wives myth, non catholic parents choose the degree of their chid's involvement. 

The most sought after catholic school in our area is Wimbledon College. I think there is an exception there to the usual rules of 30% admission for non-catholics because it was/is?  actually owned by a catholic sect, the Jesuits who opened up the school to non fee attendees in the mid 70s. So they had some freedom to negotiate with Merton Council outside of the diocese (most Local Authorities welcome faith schools as a cheap answer to over crowding in their jurisdiction.) Though Wimbledon College too have a % of non-catholics (albeit in a very expensive housing area).

Most catholic schools are based on legal arrangements founded in 1870 when state education began. The catholics, after a long memory of confiscation and seizures up to emancipation 1828 were very careful to legally maintain their independence and tie everything down in covenants, trusts and other legal structures. This means it is quite difficult for HMG to interfere with their existence. In modern times this translates to the church buying their own land and paying for the build. Then the school pays building insurance and maintenance costs. The state pay staffing costs and facilities, e.g. books, to gyms, to heating, etc. Many Catholic schools have a building fund where a each child pays a few pounds each month in term time into the fund (not compulsory but most pay). In several cases the diocese covers building costs. The catholic schools follow the national curriculum and safeguarding standards based on government guidance (KCSiE). They have control over who they employ for teaching (normal state has to follow Dept of Ed guidelines) and the same with free choice of who they appoint as governors. The freedom to choose teachers has the benefit seen in many Independent schools to take on teachers from overseas, Antipodeans and French / Flemish are common among staff which gives some variety.

I hope this gives some useful knowledge to NV readers. 
 

And forgot to add, it’s the reverse in terms of fairness .
Religious schools don’t get full state funding!
They get teachers salaries and materials, but not IT funding and building funds.
Therefore, the result is often less fancy resources or heavy reliance of parent voluntary funding/raising money for school.

This is on top of yearly parental payment per pupil that goes towards basic roof repairs and running of school not funded by the state.
It’s kind of semi-funded.

So I wish to reverse the argument!
Why is a child in a state school treated differently just because it happens to attend a religious STATE school. If they allow state funded religious schools they should find them equally. Or get rid of them. This is unfair to me .

I think your argument doesn’t hold and your friends wins.

Is this a serious post???
Yes, the council funds all kinds of religious and non-religious schools, this doesn’t give you the automatic right to any school.

Shall I say, I pay taxes so I deserve the school of my choosing despite any entrance criteria and distance?? I

More importantly, why should you wish to send your child to a school that genuinely is Catholic and expect you to go to mass and receive the holy sacraments of communion and confirmation??

The only way you could is if the places are not filled by pupils who fulfil the initial e tense requirements ….

I think your post is rather infuriating and entitled .

Careful what you wish for.
Having used both French system (both London and International overseas) and the British system (state and private) as a parent, I know the French system provides a good education and is effective. The textbooks can be rather old-fashioned and dry, compared to nowadays with the colourful exciting British ones.
The system is very different from the UK style.
There is no religious teaching at all on any religion , debatable if good or not, all views acceptable;)
Classes are large (30) it’s very inflexible prescriptive and teaching is didactic. Interaction with teacher is impersonal. Little pastoral care. Bullying (harcelement) was not dealt with very well.
There are advantages to both of course, depending on your child.
Oh and to avoid cliques the children are moved class each year and often not with friends. No sob stories tolerated just check the list !

I wish we had the French system - state schools are non religious "laique".

It would only be unfair if you were a Catholic or want some sort of religious content in your child's school day, It can be pretty full on, would you be happy with that? If that's what your happy with then I can see it being a point of frustration it being your nearest school. However, like other posters have said alot of our taxes pay for all sorts of things we don't use. Imagine all those people that don't have any kids their taxes fund schools as well.

To be fair to the school I see it normal they have certain admission criteria having seen how the church and a lot of its activities are also part of the school life. If a lit of families were not catholic it would make no sense and the priests dedicate a lot of their time to the school as it is part of their work. If children were not catholic I guarantee at sone point certain values and traditions would disappear as parents would start not supporting them.

Yes they are state funded but they tend to own the building and share some spaces with the parish. Your taxes pay for a lot of things you don’t get to use and nothing guarantees you a place in the state school you want. If the school is not oversubscribed your child can likely get in.
Why I don’t understand is the interest if non Catholic? The priests of the parish are very involved, there is class Masses, they pray and faith is an important part of the life of the school. Having been a parent there not sure how would I’ve felt if we were non Catholics. Luckily for you there is plenty of good schools in the area.

You can’t actually guarantee a place for your child in any state school, even if it’s the one you really want. I’m afraid that, just because your taxes are paying for a school, it doesn’t mean you get a place. All schools have admissions criteria. Obviously they’re a bit more specific for faith schools but, you may find that, due to the reducing number of children in the area, you might be able to get a place at some point. Hardly any of the schools are full, even the ones that tend to be very popular.

It’s also weird if you are a Brit, frankly.

For what it’s worth, I am a church goer and would prefer faith schools to follow the normal admission procedures. I think the preferred admissions are ridiculous. But I confess to knowing nothing about the funding side of things.