Well that's settled then ;) I don't understand the panic about the fact it's horse meat but........... But I do agree with the outcry about the breach of trust in that the suppliers appear to have lost control (or care) about what actually goes in their product. If it say beef it should be beef, plain and simple.

I thought the interview with the Morrisons's Representative was interesting. He said it couldn't happen with Morrisons own products because Morrisons own the abbatoirs and control the production themselves. Perhaps that's the way forward for the supermarkets?

As for the dog. cat, pig = meat point, again I agree. You wouldn't believe what I've eaten on my travels :o Personally I think we've all become too far detached from the idea of what's required to put meat on the table. There have been a couple of good TV programmes encouraging people to use other cuts of meat to cut down on waste for example.

As for the vegetarian/meat argument, I've no opinion at all. Personal choice which we in this country are lucky to have. One thing is for sure though. If we as a culture want to continue to have that choice then we are going to have to embrace technological advances in food development. As the global population and wealth rises then the demands on food and meat increases. I don't know what the answer is but I don't believe there is the capacity in organic farming to support that growth. But then again.........what do I know? :?

[quote="juliantenniscoach"]@zaarin_2003 'bute' is not permitted in the human food chain. There are no medicinal quantities or permitted levels for humans. Don't shoot the messenger it's not my opinion it's what the BBC are reporting.

As for the issue with eating horse I guess it's the nation's love of horses in recreational and entertainment circumstances that makes eating them unpalatable. Another poster put it succintly that "meat is meat" which I agree with. I don't advocate any diet/food policy, a little of everything works well with me.[/quote]

Sorry! I'm not shooting the messenger. In fact I agree with you. My main point (coming from a vegetarian's perspective) is that there seems little reason to complain about eating Horse meat because, as you say, meat is meat (as long as its not human!!). I don't think a stance of 'we love horses' is a good enough reason to object to their consumption. I mean, as an extreme example, I expect the vast majority of people in Britain would never dream of eating a dog or cat due to their social status and intelligence - yet pigs are the equal of both these animals in terms of intellect and can be in terms of their relationship with their own family.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't personally believe that people are so upset by this because of safety/bute contamination concerns. Everything I've read says that there are no health risks, even if bute contamination is found. The uproar, in my view, is precisely because of the nation's love of horses. And I think those people need to think about why they think its ok to eat a pig and not a horse, when pigs are arguably a more intelligent and a more social (with humans and its own kind) animal.

My point about bute was as a side note just to get facts straight. I know what the BBC reported, but bute was actually prescribed for medicinal purposes for a long time in humans (not eaten). Bute should not be in the food chain, yes, because it can be harmful if ingested. But at the levels we are saying might be contaminating food (about a million times below the level which might be harmful) it would literally be less harmful short and long term than the rest of the unhealthy ingredients in something like a burger.

My worry is that if these companies do not know (or choose to ignore) something as basic as which animal the meat is from, what else do they not know (or choose to ignore)?

@zaarin_2003 'bute' is not permitted in the human food chain. There are no medicinal quantities or permitted levels for humans. Don't shoot the messenger it's not my opinion it's what the BBC are reporting.

As for the issue with eating horse I guess it's the nation's love of horses in recreational and entertainment circumstances that makes eating them unpalatable. Another poster put it succintly that "meat is meat" which I agree with. I don't advocate any diet/food policy, a little of everything works well with me.

Aw, thank you, MM. Try as I might, I couldn't stay away .... :D

I've been veggie for 23 yrs, gave it up as soon as I left home.

The Linda Mc thing was years ago, some meat in some of the products. I find the sausages really salty so not a brand I buy very often.

It'd be nice if the horse meat affair made people stop and think a bit more about the provenance of their food, but I won't get over-excited.



http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2013/02/11/horse-meat-latest-vegetarians-smugness-at-98/

@juliantenniscoach
Yes, but this report, the part you quote specifically, is clearly describing the risks associated with consuming or receiving medicinal quantities of phenylbutazone; not the actual risks associated with consuming the much lower quantities of the chemical which you might find in a burger.

For example, I could describe the potential health risk of consuming pesticide for you (most likely sickness or death), but it would not be relevant despite being actually used on crops because the actual quantities you might consume would be negligible. I wouldn't expect short headline grabbing news stories to point this out.

Saying that... voila:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/09/horsemeat-in-ready-meals-health-risk

Despite that Linda McCartney debacle and the constant threat of cross-contamination when eating out, I am very glad to be vegetarian :)

Tranquillisers not withstanding, perhaps horse meat is more nutritious than cow ....

From the BBC website:-
Safety issues

Experts say horsemeat itself should be no more dangerous than beef to eat and is safe
The Food Standards Agency (FSA) has ordered food businesses to check for horsemeat in all beef products, such as beef burgers, meatballs and lasagne. The first set of results are expected on Friday 15 February
[b] There is concern that some horses are given a drug called bute (phenylbutazone) which can be dangerous to humans[/b]
In rare cases it causes a serious blood disorder known as aplastic anaemia where the body does not make enough new blood cells
Animals treated with phenylbutazone are not allowed to enter the food chain for this reason
The Food Standards Agency has ordered Findus to test their beef lasagne that contains horsemeat for bute
Results are expected in the next few days

@juliantenniscoach:

I think this is the first time I've seen anyone mention the tranquilizers and their potential danger. As I understood from the FSA statements, there is no indication of any safety issue whatsoever - so I have assumed people have had no concerns in that regard.

So why the sense of outrage at eating horse?

Hello i am a nappyvalley site user and work for CNN--we are looking to film a family that has to rely on supermarket beef as it may not be able to afford butchers, and is now worried about what they have actually consumed.
If you fall into that category or know someone who has, pls call Stephanie Halasz at 0207 693 1670. Thank you!

Just seen this on BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-21388026

I think the presence of a horse tranquiliser "not fit for the human food chain" is far more of a concern that the type of meat itself. One good thing the EU have done is to ban the import of steroid loaded meats despite massive pressure from the US.

If I was Jewish or Muslim then obviously the source of meat would be of far greater concern and the recent finds of pork in ready to eat beef products is unacceptable.

Not sure I get the 'cuddly' comment. I guess horses occupy a certain level of affection in the UK, but I don't understand why. I eat both vegetarian meals and meat, I'm not emotional about it, it's just food. Though obviously some food is tastier and healthier than others.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a minute, I would say that if we didn't 'harvest' animals then they would be on the verge of extinction. Humans haven't been sympathetic to animals that use that volume of resources without return.

Whilst the 'what it says is in the box, should be what's in the box' argument is valid, there is way more to it than that.

Unless you've chosen to eat horsemeat in the past or would do so in the future, those who are saying they are objecting to the horsemeat in their food simply because the packaging is disingenuous are delusional.

Seriously, would any of this news story be makin the headlines in the way it is if it had been lamb which had been found in beef products? It would still be a concern in regards food production standards but it would not cause this level of anger and publicity.

I think the people who are most vehemently complaining about the horse meat in their food, particularly the lower levels of 'contamination' need to think about why it is ok for them to eat a cow and a lamb but not ok to eat a horse. A cow is more useful as a source of milk and a lamb is arguably more cuddly!

Hi tooposhtopush,

I second the recommendation for Cooks brand. We add a can of chickpeas to their tagines, white beans to the chicken in wine, etc. and simmer for 30min on the stove, to stretch them out and make them more economical. Kirsty's dinners (Sainsbury's Balham has them - probably other places too) are great and high quality in my experience. Pretty good value too though, if you supplement them with more rice/veg. Or maybe we just eat a lot...

I expect both are addressing the questions raised by the horsemeat discussions.

Might be an obvious question, but how do we know if school dinners are using horsemeat?

Will the council check?