Dogs vs children at Clapham Common Cafe? Post Reply

[juliantenniscoach]

That, Souza, is a good point, well made. I'll take it on board.

[Balhamboy]

Yes I do keep my dog on a lead. Sadly it's no longer fashionable to keep toddlers on them.

[Wookiee]

I love my kids playing with the dogs on the common and when they are a little older, we will go back to being dog owners ourselves. However, both our young children have grown to be a bit scared of dogs due to continual bad experiences with dogs off leads getting a bit too keen with them. Where I grew up, if dogs behaved around sheep that way, they would risk getting shot by an over-aggressive farmer (even more wrong).

I think all those posting would agree that there is a much greater chance of a dog seriously hurting a small child than a small child hurting a dog - and so the ball is in the dog-owners' court. Furthermore, it is quite difficult to prevent your child from being bitten by a dog off a lead, but pathetically easy for a dog owner to prevent their dog from biting a child. To run that risk for both the child and the dog is purely selfish.

[Cbkaya]

I am a dog owner, and before anyone says anything she is kept on lead around the bandstand. I don't think it is right for dogs to be off lead right where people are sitting and eating as apart from anything else it is unhygienic. On the other hand how far do people who dislike dogs near the bandstand think the area of the cafe extends to? I personally take it that if there are lots of children or small children around on the gravelled area I don't my let her off. However the grass is fair game. There has to be a mid point somewhere. She comes back when called and would never dream of jumping up, grabbing food, or knocking someone however small over but I still keep her on lead on the gravelled areas.

I would also point out that with the invention of scooters etc children being loose and too far away from parents can also be dangerous to the elderly, other children, toddlers etc and personally I have found these children to be much less reliable to come back when called. I have also had my puppy almost run down by them to the point she got very scared of anything on wheels,

There are lots and lots of families with dogs and children and what happens to them, surely the people who are suggesting banning dogs from the whole area don't wish to split a family and potentially put the child, or other children if the dog if left alone, at risk if it is a single parent family.

There are also many dog families who cannot have children, their dogs are effectively their canine children and they could no more be split from them as you could from your human children. Please bare them in mind when you make your comments about splitting them up.

All told, yes I believe dogs should be on lead around the tables etc at the cafe and even the gravel area when there are children on it, however the grass area next door is one of the few places on the common not near a road, ponds etc that dogs can be let off lead and run and play for a bit. The whole common can be used by families and there are special areas fenced in for parents who don't want their children around dogs.

I finally make one plea, can you all PLEASE ask your children to ask the dogs owner if it's okay to pet the dog and if it's off lead and the owner isn't in sight (very rare in my opinion) please don't pet it. My girl. (Dog) is great with children of all ages but she has been overwhelmed when on lead a group of children ran up fast and proceeded to smother the 'cute' puppy. Nothing happened and I'm not sure they would do that now she's older but it really scared her and children behaving like that does cause accidents .

[jafina]

As a mother of 3 children also with a young dog I can see both sides of this, and both sides can and do exhibit poor behaviour. Obviously any sane person understands that a child's safety is of primary importance but I agree with previous poster that parents MUST tell their children to never touch a dog unless its owner has given the OK. Please tell your nannies and au pairs as well, as they often seem oblivious to their very small charges running over and trying to hug my puppy. She is completely soppy but I can't guarantee she wouldn't snap if a child hurt her or scared her badly.

I would never take my dog into the Bandstand cafe, for those who like to take their dogs into a cafe they should try Cafe Nero on Bellevue Road, a dog friendly cafe with more dogs than people!

Sadly I don't think people using this forum are the ones who are most guilty of poor supervision of dogs and children....

[DeborahB]

Can we, as grown up's in a civilised area, not just all get along, let everyone live in harmony by respecting each other & perhaps communicate politely if there is a problem. I am a dog owner, have chosen not to be a parent & am a nanny so I am usually with children when I go to the bandstand. I love my dog, have had her for 12 years & trust her with children as she is very well behaved, but I would never leave her unsupervised with children as it's always better to be safe than sorry. There are signs in the seated area at the cafe requesting dogs be kept on leads - therefore dog owners using the cafe should respect this rule. If you are sitting at the cafe & a dog off lead comes over from another table then just politely ask that it be kept on the lead, as per the sign. Equally, when I am trying to drink a coffee I don't really want unruly children running riot so parents & carers should keep children under control in the cafe area. Clapham common has areas for sitting, areas for running free & paths for cycling/running/walking. Dogs should be kept under control but need to exercise & be allowed to run free where appropriate. Kids also should be kept under control whilst being allowed to enjoy the park. There are fenced off areas where dogs & children can't mix & this includes the purpose built play areas so I suggest those parents who don't wish their children to be around dogs, use those areas. In the other areas of the common, we should all just have a little common courtesy. Children do need to be taught to interact safely with dogs so they don't grow up afraid, however dogs & children should always be supervised & parents need to teach their children to use caution with dogs they don't know. The real question is, when did we all become so selfish & short sighted?

[Vhopeful]

Like others have said i believe dogs should be allowed run free in the common, but when it comes to the cafe and outdoor tables they really need to be on leads. This past weekend i had a bit of a dispute with a dog owner, her dog was covered in water and mud and kept running under our table. Excuse me but i certainly wouldn't let my toddlers run under peoples tables!! I asked her to put him on a lead which she tried to do but really i don't think i should have to feel like a bad guy for doing so....
Maybe the tabled area needs to be fenced off and become a dog free space...

[Mayamoo]

Please find below a response from Lambeth Council to an email that I sent earlier this week regarding the dogs near the bandstand. To cut a long story short my 2 year old daughter was terrorised by a dog last Friday afternoon - he was snarling viciously, straining on his lead and looked like he was about to attack /bite her. My daughter was absolutely terrified and tried to run - she fell over and tore her leggings, cut her knees and lay on the floor crying with fear. We were standing about 10m away when it happened - the owner somehow managed to call her dog off and after a struggle pulled him away and walked off without even bothering to apologise / check whether my daughter was hurt. Quite frankly I was disgusted by her total lack of humanity. I have read some of the other posts and strongly feel that the safety of children should come first - end of. My daughter was not playing on a scooter to teasing the dog - she was simply playing with her friend. I accept that the majority of dog owners are responsible but allowing dogs (especially those with a vicious or unpredictable tendencies) to roam in an area where children play is inevitably going to end in some form of disaster.

The response from Lambeth Council is as follows:

'I am sorry to hear about the distress caused to your daughter, and to yourself, by certain dogs on Clapham Common. I sympathise that you felt the dogs were being aggressive and apologise.

At this point this incident shall be reported to Animal Warden, Claire McMahon, to see if there is scope within council’s resources to carry out some educational work with owners on responsible dog ownership. The incident shall also be forwarded to the Community Safety Team who focus on preventing issues such as these.
Unfortunately there are currently no restrictions surrounding dogs being off the lead on the common, however we would expect dog owners to be responsible when using the site. As the Park is ultilsed by such a diverse range of the community, it would be impossible to make the park dog free. However, if you wish to visit the park without dog intrusion there are certain areas, such as the children play areas and picnic areas, that are dog free zones.

Existing dog legislation only allows further intervention if a dog is dangerously out of control. Urgent issues with dangerous dogs should be reported to the police on 999.

Clapham Common does not have park wardens/rangers but you can report any issues to us on parks@lambeth.gov.uk or by phoning 020 7926 9000.
Once again please accept our apologies for any distress caused. If you have any other enquiries please do not hesitate to contact us further'.

Kind Regards,

Callum Brodie
Cooperative Parks Officer
Culture and Communities
London Borough of Lambeth
Tel: 020 7926 1979
Email: CBrodie@lambeth.gov.uk

3rd Floor, Phoenix House
10 Wandsworth Road
London SW8 2LL

[DeborahB]

Well that seems like a perfectly decent response to your complaint, although I'm actually unsure what your complaint is here. You say the dog was straining on his lead, therefore indicating that he was on a lead & hence, under control; possibly more so than your child. There are plenty of dog free zones in the park & utilising the park with a child in tow does not make you more important than other park users. Teach your daughter not to go over to dogs unless she knows them or has asked permission & then there won't be a problem. Children fall over & make a scene about it all the time, that's a hazard of running around, I see no reason why the dog owner had any responsibility to check if your daughter hurt herself whilst running since she was 10m away with her dog on the lead. Also, would you rather she brought the "viscous" dog over to your child & terrified her further, just so she could ask about her tripping injury.
Parents need to realise that the park is a public place for all & not just for those with children. We all have a right to use the space & there are in fact extra areas for children where dog owners are not allowed.
I am not justifying dangerous dogs being allowed to run riot off the lead but that clearly wasn't the case here. Everyone needs to show responsibility & we can all the space in harmony.

[kcai]

I am not justifying dangerous dogs being allowed to run riot off the lead but

Oh, really. Dangerous dogs shouldn't be out in public. End of.

Also, "viscous" - um. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Mayamoo, good luck getting the council to listen. I really don't think dangerous dogs are taken seriously in this country. A few years ago I saw a mastiff cross ripping a border collie to bits. The dog turned on its owner and bit his arm numerous times. No charges were filed because both dogs were off leash (I spoke to the collie owner several weeks after the fact).

I've owned and fostered dogs, and used to compete in obedience with my own dog, so I'm certainly not anti-dog. I've seen a good share of responsible dog owners on Clapham Common but I've also experienced idiots letting their dog jump all over my (at the time) 1 year old daughter in her stroller without calling it off. Yes, I'm one of those mothers who teach their children NOT to pet any dog without asking the owner first. In that same vein, I expect dog owners to keep track of their animal at all times and put them on leash when necessary.

Also, I don't at *all* see the parallel between an out of control dog and an out of control toddler. One can disfigure/maim you. The other might... uh, what's the worst thing I can think of? Spill a sippy cup on you? Knock over your cake? Annoyances, yes, but if you're going to huff on for weeks about an 18 month old getting in your way on a scooter for 30 seconds then all I can say is #firstworldproblems.

[DeborahB]

You are correct, dangerous dogs should not be allowed, end of! I believe we agree on that point but it doesn't sound like the dog being complained about fits into that category since it didn't hurt anyone & was on the lead!
Well done for spotting my typo but I'm guessing most people were intelligent enough to realise that is what it was, the word I meant to type was obviously viscious!
I still fail to see what you expect the council to do about this non-incident?

[Mayamoo]

DeborahB – you appear to have deliberately misinterpreted my post and have made several inflammatory comments with the sole aim of trying to justify your own (and in my view) rather pathetic arguments. To reiterate my 2 year old daughter was playing innocently near the bandstand – she did not approach or tease the dog that terrorised her and the attack was totally unprovoked. My daughter was extremely frightened and could easily have been mauled by the dog. Although he was on a lead the owner of the dog seemed unable to control him – the owner was walking by the bandstand when the dog started to tug on his lead / snarl / bark at my daughter for no apparent reason. I was there – you were not – to twist what happened and suggest that my daughter was in some way at fault for being terrorised by an aggressive dog is plain sick and speaks volumes about you and your ethos - or lack of it. We were standing about 10m away when the incident happened – the owner and her dog were next to my daughter yet she did absolutely nothing to check whether my daughter was okay. The owner - after a struggle – did manage to call the dog off and then simply walked off without a backwards glance or apology. In terms of my correspondence with Lambeth Council I highlighted the risk posed to children when irresponsible dog owners such as this woman allow their dangerous dogs to access areas such as the bandstand that are frequented by young children.

[Herculesmum]

I don't want to restart this debate, but I thought I would reach out to Petal and Mayamoo and offer both of you the chance to introduce your toddlers to one or both of my dogs in a controlled environment.

I have a very friendly Pug that would lick them to bits, and a beautiful collie who is a puppy herself so very boisterous but completely gentle.

As a dog owner I'm always saddened when I see children scared of dogs and I would be very happy to help with introducing your children to mine in a controlled environment (on lead, in an open area) so that they can begin to break down the fear they have learned from the negative experiences they have had.

Its very distressing to see your child scared or upset so I can understand why you feel passionately about your experiences. A slow controlled introduction to very friendly calm dogs may be a great help.

[crisr90]

I am a dog owner and walk my dog on the Common every day. I try to be respectful of every other group in the park and always avoid areas with lots of children (such as the bandstand cafe).

Somebody suggested fencing off the area outside the cafe so all the tables would be enclosed. This seems like an excellent idea to me. If this area were further enhanced with posts where dog owners could tie their dogs up if they wished to enter the cafe' to purchase a drink, then it would be extremely easy to ensure that the cafe and its tables remained dog free.

Most dog owners are responsible and concerned about the welfare of children whether or not they have any. While I believe childrens' lives are seriously enhanced by spending time with animals (as mine was); if the child in question is not mine, this is certainly not my call to make and the wishes of those parents who want to keep their children away from dogs should be respected.

A bad first encounter between a child and a dog (whether it be because that dog is aggressive or, more likely, overly friendly and/or keen to lick child in question/beg for food etc...) can traumatise children for years to come. It is in nobody's interest that unsupervised encounters of this kind should occur, particularly as they serve to increase the rancour between dog owners/parents when we should all be respectful of each others' needs.

[cheshirecat]

My son, who is now 4 was nipped at and his friend was bitten by an unleashed dog, at our table in the cafe. It's taken a long time (2 years), a lot of lovely dogs and perseverance to get him out of his phobia, which naturally developed after the incident. These days there are only three dogs he will touch and is finally able to cope with us getting a dog. The owners of that dog are completely unaware of the damage they caused and most likely they do not care, the mutt is probably still scavenging under the tables in the cafe, rather than being exercised on the common.

Other parks do not have this problem, and it is a problem. I have not been back to the cafe since the incident and would much rather go to Battersea or Brockwell parks, where you can enjoy the cafe's and the dogs in a happy balance. If it works elsewhere, then why not the Common? Fencing the cafe might be a good start.