School Admissions Consultation - Belleville Post Reply

[MGMidget]

Cynic,

Thanks for further details on the map. I got the chance to see a paper copy of it last night at the Alderbrook meeting and yes, on closer look there might only be one non-sibling entrant south of Broomwood or possibly on Broomwood Road, not clear. The council members said it wasn't the absolute latest situation as some places were offered after it was done. We know of the chap who spoke up at the meeting for example who was south of Broomwood Road.

Re: Alderbrook, at the meeting last night we learned that there is a growing demand for school places in other wards South and West of Alderbrook (e.g. Nightingale Ward). The Alderbrook expansion wasn't being thought of as satisfying demand in Northcote Ward although it could satisfy some growing demand in Balham Ward. They weren't sure how far the catchment area would extend with the extra 30 places so not clear at all whether people South of Broomwood, especially those at the further end who are in Northcote Ward, would have a solution there.

Yes I do think Honeywell have complicated things by not participating in a review of the catchment area at the same time as the others as it could all have been coordinated. However, they are under no obligation to change their admission rules, the council can't force them as they are a Foundation school. So we are where we are, in a bit of a mess.

Personally I would vote for the Belleville proposals if the first priority zone went as far as Thurleigh Road which would still free up lots of sibling spaces, possibly 19, but would vote against the current priority zone proposals because of where the boundaries are. Maybe they need to draw the line higher than Thurleigh Road closer to Clapham Common to reflect its greater distance from the school but I think they ought to reflect the area that they have been making offers to Belleville in the last few years to be fair. The council panel seemed to think drawing a priority zone would free up more places for those close to Forthbridge Rd that want them. Remember only 9 applied for school places last year in that area and five got places under the current system so if there was a similar number applying under a revised system of priority zones from 2012 it is likely they could all get a place at Belleville if they wanted it.

Re: Beatrix Potter, lots of people did get in from priority zone 2 and further afield in the lastest intake as they had an extra class. Was that a one-off or will Beatrix Potter have an extra class in subsequent years?

[cynic]

hazel15malwood

thanks for clarifying your data

Isn't it utterly dull how much effort we all have to make to play detective on this to get to the bottom of actual data!

Still waiting on the council to clarify the date of their map but yes I think it is looking like it may be quite up-to-date as:
a) it has a couple of non-sibling offers at distance 750-800m (whereas 31July max offers distance was 710m)
b) it does have one non-sibling offer just south of Broomwood Rd (and two on that road itself)
c) it has further away non-sibling offers on it that did not appear on a similar council map I saw on 12Aug10 (tho for complete accuracy I cannot be certain of that map date)

[cynic]

MGMidget

thanks you for the info on the Alderbrook meeting

Pls forgive but I need to add some important detail to a point you have just made, which I think alters the conclusion you have made.

You wrote "Remember only 9 applied for school places last year in that area and five got places under the current system so if there was a similar number applying under a revised system of priority zones from 2012 it is likely they could all get a place at Belleville if they wanted it"

The two facts are this (& I have checked these):
a) Wandsworth schools only received 9 reception applications in
2010 from addresses in the roads immediately surrounding the FBR site
(not the second GPA as a whole)
b) 5 non-siblings in the second GPA got reception places in 2010 at Belleville. You can indeed identify these 5 on the map- streets - 3 on Lavender Sweep, 1 on Elspeth Rd and one appears to be on Mysore Rd (indeed this looks to possibly be the furthest away non-sibling place at about 800m walking distance away from Belleville main site according to Google)

Ergo there's really two different areas really here which you have placed as one.
ONE: the area north of Battersea Rise, directly North of Belleville School which seem just about close enough to to Belleville main site get some late offers (well this year at least, I dnt rate their chances going forward)
TWO: the immediate area around the Forthbridge site. The fact that the Council are happy to conclude that a current small number of applications from here implies no demand for school places is amazingly short-sighted reasoning.


Perhaps the council could co-ordinate around Honeywell's consult. On Mon night they seemed to indicate any kind of coordination was impossible, but if they cannot achieve it who on earth can!

[cynic]

Monaco/MGMidget,

There's a question I must ask you guys

We are of course still waiting for the council to date their now-infamous map. It seems from all our detective work, that while it's not quite the latest picture, it is at least more recent than this year's brochure.
The map shows only ONE non-sibling offer south of Broomwood Rd.
MGMidget tells us the council say there have been some more since then, but I think it is more than reasonable to conclude:
Whatever non-sibling offers that have been made this year to residents south of Broomwood Rd they have been relatively few.

To remind us of the geography back on 18Mar10, the initial maximum offers made distance to Belleville was 488m (this is in the brochure). At end 31july it was 710m (and later has widened from there on the map there's one at about 800m)
Now as I have pointed out the closest point Broomwood Rd is 400m from Belleville School, but Thurleigh Rd/Wroughton Rd junction is at least 750m away.

Why do you think we haven't we seen more non-sibling offers south of Broomwood Rd in the council data?

[cynic]

Sarah Harty from Wandsworth Council has emailed me to say the map goes up to 15thOctober

[hazel15malwood]

Hi Cynic,
Good point on the offers of places South of Broomwood. What might answer the question is to see a map for sibling and non-sibling offers to Honeywell. For example, I know families who live on Wroughton Road and Gayville Road whose first children got into Honeywell reception this year and from talking with them, it would appear their neighbours also get into Honeywell.
Also interesting, a number of the very late places became available at Belleville because people who were offered Honeywell places at the last minute switched. So another question re the map - does it reflect offers made or actual uptake of offers? I suspect the latter, which might explain why there are so few south of broomwood crosses on the map as they ultimately did get into Honeywell. Can anyone shed any more light on this?

[mumble]

rats I did a long post on here the other night saying you can't just get rid of sibling entry to one school etc etc etc and it's disappeared.
now I can't remember what else it said!!

[monaco]

I think haElwood is right. Th map doesnt show the offers that were made but the actual places that were taken.
What would be a more accurate representation of south of broomwood demand would be to see how many are on the waiting list and how many places were offered to those on the waiting list.

[cynic]

Hazel15malwood,

As Monaco says, I am pretty sure the map is offers that have been taken up
(If all offers made ever were included it would actually be very hard to show anything useful really on a map - the number of addresses would be much higher than 120 etc...)
I guess the point to be made is that such a map is always a just a snapshot of the offers made situation on that day.

At any stage some offers that the council thought had been taken-up may then become free, the situation is quite fluid.
AS THIS map dates from 15Oct10, I wld imagine there would be less movement after term has started, as parents reluctant to move their chidlren without a strong reason

[cynic]

Monaco/MGMidget

To recap what we know:
Honeywell is 300m further south than Belleville.
Honeywell offers distance started at 404m in March widening to 444m at end July (no data as to probable widening after that)
Belleville offers distance started at 488m in March, widened to 710m at end July and we know it has widened to approx 800m but these were very late offers (maybe even further)
So if you live south of Broomwood Rd, it was only very late this year i.e. sometime AFTER 31July that Belleville distance started to overtake the Honeywell distance
Hazel15malwood talks about this - last minute moving around in waiting lists and things- it all sounds very stressful indeed for the parents involved....ouch...


So I think there's a HUGE observation that MUST be pointed out here
I fear it's going to be a bit upsetting to hear and I take no pleasure in that. However I think it's such an important and inescapable conclusion to all the lots of good research & excellent discussion that has now occurred on this matter- it really is the elephant in the room:
Whatever the problems of residents south of Broomwood in gaining local school places, which I sympathise with greatly, a clear observation to be made is that the demand for Belleville has clearly been so strong that even setting-up this new Forthbridge "annexe" has NOT helped to significantly improve access to Belleville for those living south of Broomwood Rd.
In brief - the extra capacity created has simply been absorbed within two years by the area immediately surrounding Belleville!

It seems counter-intutive perhaps -
Yes people certainly got some places in 2009 (when 30 new temporary places created in April blew the offers distance out to over 900m).
And yes of course historically those residents got places at Belleville but the schools increasing popularity means those times are unfortunately probably gone.
I imagine when the council pitched the Forthbridge annexe plan they implied it would help residents south of Broomwood Rd, but other than one or two years clearly it has NOT.

Let me be very clear & honest about why I think this point is so important.
I and many other people firmly believe there should be a local admission at the Forthbridge site. We think there are lots of positive reasons for this and we will be continuing to campaign for that.
Monaco & MGMidget in particular - you both have expressed sympathy with the general principle of local schools being attended by local children, but I fear that when push comes to shove you may be concerned that any local admission near Forthbridge would take away potential places for residents south of Broomwood Rd.
BUT it does not seem that this will actually be the case


Moreover
It seems very clear that Honeywell (your closest school) ought to be the focus of your efforts for school access.
Honeywell (300m further south than Belleville) has 90 reception places but no room for expansion.
In 2010 it admitted 49 siblings in reception, a whopping 26 in 2010 of these would not have got in on distance alone.
I personally would support strongly any proposals in their promised consulation next spring to improve local access to that school.

[monaco]

Cynic

You are concerned with getting access to the Forthbridge site. We are concerned with getting access into ANY of our FOUR local schools.

What you say is wrong: there are anecdotal evidence that several people South of Broomwood got into Belleville this year BECAUSE of the expansion. Again, had I applied this year, I would have gotten in. Who says that this wouldn't apply in the subsequent years ?

We are happy to get into Honeywell, Alderbrook, Wix or Belleville. If, like you, we were sure of getting into at least one of these schools (as the further distance last year was 1689m for Wix and Forthbridge road people live about 500m from Wix so it's a piece of cake for them), we would be very happy!

So yes, I am personnally worried that the Forthbridge people would take away places that should go to us, especially as we then have no further option, which again is not your case.

I feel that this discussion is now going in circles, with only you, MG Midget and me discussing it. We have two different opinions, my efforts to spearhead the discussion towards a resolution have been dismissed so I will now abstain from commenting further here.

My goal was to ensure that a different point of view than the Forthbridge campaign one would be read and understood by people on this forum so I hope I have achieved this.

I hope the status quo on the current admissions policy will prevail and encourage everyone to vote "NO".

[cynic]

Monaco,

you state that what I say is wrong, but I think that is a little unfair of you. Please note I did NOT deny in any of my posts that several people South of Broomwood got into Belleville this year.

I simply wrote "this new Forthbridge "annexe" has NOT helped to significantly improve access to Belleville for those living south of Broomwood Rd"
I stand by that statement entirely

An undisputed fact is that as of 15Oct10 only one non-sibling place south of Broomwood Rd (& two on Broomwood Rd itself) had been offered at Belleville. Yes as you say I accept since then there's anecdotal evidence of at least one additional offer made to that area.

The point I was trying to make is that this is a tiny amount of offers and these are being made VERY late in the day (after term has started!). This is clearly quite a desperate situation and extremely unsatisfactory for parents living in that area. Again I genuinely sympathise with this.
BUT given that 30 places were created by the Forthbridge extension, the extent to which this extra capacity has filtered through to help parents in the area we are discussing could clearly not at any stretch of the imagination be labelled as significant.

I think that is a perfectly reasonable & fair observation

[rcourtney]

Cynic,

Perfectly reasonable arguments.

Monaco ,

You are right, the 'debate' is going round in circles. After reading your numerous posts it is very clear that you want improved access to Belleville for 'South of Broomwood Road' residents. I can understand this. Point made. Thanks.


What I can't understand is the general lack of appreciation for the bigger picture. I was looking for a more objective, higher level discussion about the future of schools in the area and not a constant reiteration of the same points time and time again. Its either time to take this discussion forward or call it as day, like Monaco has, and submit our forms to the Council with our final decisions. I believe we all now have enough information to make an informed decision.

I hope that anyone that is still to make up their mind supports the Forthbridge site / secondary catchment area whilst commenting that local schools should be for local children.
I will certainly be voting 'YES' to the Forthbridge secondary catchment, but commenting that this site should be for children who live within its immediate proximity (measured by distance from the Forthbridge site not the Belleville main site as proposed)

[cynic]

rcourtney

Apols if there's any going round in circles on my part, but I think of lot of these things are (rather annoyingly!) in the detail and your post is a good example.

I would argue there's strong evidence that even if a second GPA is created it becomes simply an after-thought over time i.e. the first GPA dominates if the school is popular.
This is a consequence of the ranking of the GPAs (and so I would contend this would happen EVEN if distance were to be measured from Forthbridge site).

The council gave Beatrix Potter School as the example of the only other school in the Borough with two RANKED GPAs. Indeed it has had these GPAs for many years. So if you look over recent years how many non-siblings have gained places from addresses in its Second GPA?
Well in 2007, 2008 & 2009= NONE did!
In 2008 siblings took all reception places at the school, while in 2007 & 2009 after siblings, some children in the first GPA DID get in under distance, but none got in by distance in the second GPA.
(2010 saw an expansion from 30 reception places to 60 and this expansion meant that in 2010 all categories had admissions).

Also if you had a second GPA at Forthbridge, you could even see a slightly bizarre effect of parents who have already got a child in from the first GPA moving to the cheaper-priced second GPA area (as siblings have equal priority from either GPA). This would of course yield vacant addresses in the first GPA for new families, thus increasing the demand from within it- the second GPA may just become "a sibling area".

On your wider point it does seem such a shame the the council have no ability to hold a wider consult on all the schools in the BTC area at the time.
e.g. launching coordinated GPAs for all the popular schools at the same time (Alderbrook, Honeywell, Belleville) could address the sibling issue, while no school would feel it was being singled out (this being the root of many of the Belleville Governors objections to the current proposals)
The Council point out that Honeywell as Foundation school runs it own admission policy and consults, but surely they should have a good enough relationship with that school that some coordination would be possible! (after all the council still fund the school!)

[monaco]

rcourtney

actually, my point is that I want South of Broomwood residents to be able to access one of their four closest schools, be it Belleville, Honeywell, Wix or Alderbrook.