Anyone else get harangued outside Northcote Library today?! Post Reply

[Thankyoutories]

What is astonishing about the "pro-school" posts is that there is a huge amount of rudeness and bullying in what should be a civilised debate.

I simply ask again and again this question:-

What percentage of HW and BV children request CG and have that request denied?

You can all shout and be rude and condescending but until that question is answered then you do not have a case.

CG is your local secondary school.

If you cannot get into it, then you have a case.

If you can get into it, you do not.

That information is not available on any of the sites you keep referring to.

If you are not able to present a robust argument as to why we should have a large capital expenditure based on needs then many parties like myself and the GMB will assume your motivations are not needs based and are driven by something else.

[thishasallgotheated]

I would like to join in this debate. TYT has been a bit of a c*ck with his comments, ok a lot of a c*ck, but I do think there may be something in his or her questions.

As I understood it we need new schools to meet demand for school places but this whole project appears to be rushed through and I am deeply disturbed about the feeder school set-up.

Are we actually saying that the kids from Honeywell and Belleville could have places at Chestnut Grove but they don't feel it is good enough?

That would appear to be a very different need to saying they simply can't get places anywhere, which is what I understood to be the case.

Do we have that information anywhere?

I am also disappointed that any alternative uses are not being mooted, surely we should be considering all options?

[Virgil Tibbs]

TYT - to say the debate is not civilised when it was you who played the class/race card is insidious to say the least. That aside, the school campaign is about two things I think - 1, its about choice - for example, the choice to send or not to send one's child to Chestnut Grove of indeed wherever. That is not an absolute and yet you frame the whole debate as unconditional. Plus of course your logic is based on CG being the local school. But is it really? As has been pointed out elsewhere there are actually 8 other primary schools that are closer to CG than Honeywell. Do ALL the kids from these closer schools attend CG? If not, why not? So does one define a school as local based on distance or based on the number of other primary schools closer to it? And 2, crucially the campaign is about a significant increase in the birth rate that existing borough schools do not have the capacity to deal with. Evidence for this has been given in previous posts. So if the sole basis of your argument is that we should all send our childern to CG then that is just a bit ignorant really isn't it? It shows a lack of any real understanding and foresight on your part about what the campaign or indeed 'free schools' in general are actually about.

[Thankyoutories]

Virgil
Thank you for the comment.

Why is mentioning my belief that this is a race/class issue uncivilised?

Are you suggesting by simply expressing my belief that this is a race/class issue I am being uncivilised?

All you have to do is look at the threads above to see that some of responses to my questions have been rude and bullying.

The demographic for Belleville and Chestnut Grove is very very different.

Anyone who believes that they are not has simply not looked at CG.

It is telling that posters responses to my comments about this tell *me* to go to Belleville. No-one has said they have been to Chestnut Grove.

I believe that Wandsworth Council has a duty to offer the very best education possible, and that is across all of our schools.

I feel that the elephant in the room here is that the majority of these posters do not believe that CG is good enough for their children.

But as opposed to working together to make that a better school they want to start their own

The real crime is that if that their parental energy were focused on helping to transform a school like CG then it would become a great community school.

For everyone.

That is a real real shame.

[Happymama]

I have re-read all the posts and I am sorry I cannot see why you feel like you have been bullied. Its comments such as:

"If I have time this weekend I will work out the average house price for the catchment areas of BV and HW"

that are outrageous clearly demonstrate that your main issue with the school is the demographics of the area not the need for a new school.

My question to you TYT. If the council was proposing to build a new secondary school in a less affluent area would you be so against it? I am sorry but I don't think you would.

You clearly choose to ignore the point made in various posts - the birth rate has increased and there is clearly a need for a new secondary school. If Chestnut Grove had free places every year I could see your point but the facts are that last year there were 777 applications to Chestnut Grove for 150 places (this figure was given on a previous post by the Fight the Bolingbroke Academy group).

Also amazes me that members of this group are able to choose what school they send their children too (Ashcroft was clearly not good enough for Joan Holloway - see previous post) and she chose to send her son to a school in Balham (she lives in Putney). But according to TYT all Northcote Road parents have to send their kids to Chestnut Grove.

I continue to be doubtful about the real reason behind this Anti Bolingbroke Academy Group and as previously stated I was not someone with a particularly strong opinion on the matter before reading their Facebook page and this thread.

[Thankyoutories]

Thank you for the post.

Why is my belief "outrageous"?

TYT

[Virgil Tibbs]

TYT - the 'elephant in the room' is the huge increase in children coming through the system due to rising birth rates. To ignore that is pure folly. And you willfully ignore my question to you about why the children attending the 8 primary schools that are closer to Chestnut Grove do not all attend CG? It is plain to see that you are applying double standards - one rule for the parents at Ravenstone, Alderbrook, Henry Cavendish, Fircroft and the like but another rule for the parents at Highview, Wix, Belleville and Honeywell. And yes, I have been to CG. Have you been to Belleville or Highview? I am guessing not or else you would not be posting the class/race based invective that you do.

[Thankyoutories]

Hi
Thank you for the post.

I have been to Belleville many many times.

And Honeywell, many many times.

I will answer your question. Please do the same for me.

Your question is, I think, what I think we should do with the increasing birth rate in Wandsworth?

I believe we need to extend the schools we have, in the manner set by the Belleville expansion precendent, and by doing so we will also improve those schools that we currently have.

I also understand we have scarce resources and we need to focus them on the schools that need them most. If children from BV and HW can get into CG then, quite obviously, they do not need a new school.

But it appears that they won't apply for CG because they don't think its good enough.

That is a different issue.

To say "My children have no school to go to" is one argument

To say "I don't think my children's school is good enough" is another.

And if it is the latter, and I beleive it is for the majoirty of the pro-school lobby, then we should work together to improve CG.

Not selfishly allocate scarce resources for a small sub-section of the community.

As we have seen with the progress of Belleville, a school can improve with support from parents and teachers.

Now please can you answer my question.

Why is my mentioning that I believe this is a race/class issue outrageous?

TYT

[Virgil Tibbs]

TYT - but have you also been to Highview, one of our local feeder schools? The debate is about 'choice' - you apparently do not understand the concept. Plus you continue to ignore the point about the 8 primary schools that are closer to CG. And to answer your question directly: to play the race card is to accuse people that you don't even know of being racist - which is a cheap shot by anyones standards, except clearly your own. Your problems appear to run much deeper than whether a new school is needed or not. Do us all a favour and give it a rest.

[yummydaddy]

TYT,

I'm glad that you have now acknowledged the need for extra school places.

You refer to Belleville as your blueprint for expansion, i.e. set up a satellite school (Forthbridge site) linked to the main, Belleville, site.

Now, are you suggesting we should do the same for the Bolingbroke site ? I.e.: establish Bolinkroke site as a Chestnut Grove satellite ?

If this is what you mean, then I'm telling you why I don't think this is a good idea:

a.) As mentioned earlier in this thread: The Chestnut Grove headmaster is busy fighting her own teachers over her Academy Plans - not sure if she would have the capacity to manage the set-up of an whole new school.

b.) you might not know this, but Belleville expansion is stalling, because of the various complications that a split side solution throws up - just google this topic: you find 100s of voices again and in favour of this and as a result the Council hasn't made much progress to push this ahead.

c.) there is plenty of research that shows "Superschools" (i.e. schools above 1,000 students) are detrimental to performance.

d.) it is almost impossible the find a fair solution regarding catchments areas: measure from "headquarter" or satellite school ?
This is in fact one of the reasons why Belleville expansion is blocked.

e.) logistic are tricky: traffic between the school of both teachers and students (in particular if there is streaming).


And my final comment: You would have none of the above mention problems if you set up Bolingbroke Academy as a stand-alone school ...

[localunionmember]

There is a new study from GMB union onthe GMB website re this free school on the official data on household incomes in the various areas in wandsworth including those included and not included inthe catchment area for the school.

check it out. these are the headlines and opening paragraph.

BATTERSEA PARENTS FROM HIGH INCOME AREAS SETTING UP FREE SCHOOL WITH PUBLIC FUNDS PLAN TO EXCLUDE PUPILS FROM NEARER LOW INCOME AREA “FROM WRONG SIDE OF THE TRACKS”

Self selecting group behind free school plan to include pupils from households with incomes 185% of the London average while excluding pupils from households with incomes 76.2% of the average 0.2 km nearer the selected site

The average annual household incomes in three areas located mainly south of Clapham Junction railway, planned to be included in the catchment area for the “Bankers free school” to be set up at Bollingbroke Hospital site in Battersea, are 185% of the London average (£81,000),153.6% ( £67,000) and 138.1% (£60,000) respectively. The average annual household income in an excluded area located north of the railway line which is nearer the site is 76.2% (£33,280) of the London average. The decision on which areas to be included and excluded was taken by a self selecting group of parents accountable to no one assisted by carpet bagging consultants.

[equality]

TYT
I have read this thread with interest and sometimes amusement. It never ceases to amuse me how BTC parents can justify what is in reality self interest. Now who can blame them for wanting the best for their children but come on, just say it. Many years ago when I was looking for a primary school for my child, a neighbour told me to apply to a certain school because it was private education for free. Isn't that what the new school is about, not paying for private education but having something next best for free. I agree that it is clear that the borough will need more schooling but why there? If you speak to CG teachers they will tell you that the BTC parents don't apply to CG because they don't think it is good enough. Can someone clarify something please? Children apply to several schools, don't they? Does this not mean that they are all going to be oversubscribed to some extent? I thought the comments about CG's headteacher were offensive. She is excellent and for that reason was seconded to Elliot to sort it out. Does that not make the case for her school being expanded and, using the Belleville precedent, measuring distance from CG. That would at least give the appearance of the council acting consistently and fairly. But they are not acting that way. It is a tory council doing the bidding of tory voters. I do not think the comments made by TYT are in the least outrageous, she/he has right to his/her view. Come on BTC parents, we would all respect you more for truth and the answer to one question that TYT puts time and time again. just now many of you applied to CG and did not get a place? I bet none. Also, it is laughable to say that CG could not cope if all the BV and HW children applied because they won't but hey, if they do, res ipsa loquitur, expand CG. I think you all defeat your own self interested arguments.

[yummydaddy]

Equality

On your points:
"Not paying for private education": not sure why parents in this area of Battersea don't have a right to state education ?
why would Bolingbroke Academy be "something next best to private education" ? They school hasn't even started yet, might be a good school or a bad school, only the future will tell
"It is a Tory council doing the bidding of Tory voters": not sure I understand, the council is supposed to reflect local residents' needs/requirements; 2,600 local resident support the school

It is tiring to explain the same things over and over again; you claim to have read this thread, yet you miss the key facts:
"the borough will need more schooling but why there?"; Nortcote Ward has one of the highest birth rates in the country and the highest in Wandsworth
" BTC parents don't apply to CG because they don't think it is good enough" - At Chestnut Grove less than 50% of pupils achieve 5 A-C grades in English and Maths
"comments about CG's headteacher were offensive. " - It's a fact that she is up in arms with the teacher: vast majority voted to ballot for strike action.
"using the Belleville precedent" - Belleville expansion is stuck because of the split site complications that you suggest (just read previous threat)
"expand CG": Council wants to expand Belleville because many parents would kill to get into Belleville/Honeywell. This is not the case for CG.
Any open questions ?

And on the previous (Union) post:
Just get your maths right, please. Not that difficult with Google Map.
Falconbrook is 2.1 Km from the new school site
The 3 biggest feeders (Wix has only one form) will be Belleville (350m from site, 4 form), Honeywell 650m (3 form), High View 850m (2-3 form).
Classwar doesn't get you anywhere, well, back to the 70s probably, but some people never learn ...

[equality]

I think yummydaddy you have answered my point, CG is not good enough. And I think you will find that the Belleville plan is anything but stuck, it goes through on 12 January at committee. Whatever the problem with CG converting to an academy (does not Belleville have the same aspiration) and however angry the head is at proposed action against it (again, might be repeated at Belleville when it gets there) it does not detract from the fact it is an excellent school with and excellent head and following the Belleville precedent, the new school should be annexed to it.
It seems to me BTC parents want it all ways. A shiny annex to Belleville which in effect prevents children from less privilaged areas getting in but a new school in Bolingbroke where the entrance criteria prevents the same, to all intents and purposes. You know, double standards is a concept we are all guilty of but come out and admit it. Again, can someone, anyone at all out there tell me of any child at all in Northcote who applied to CG and did not get in on distance? And what other secondary school goes on feeder schools alone? Why can't the new school serve a 3km radius with percentages from lots of schools to ensure it is fair. Why are only the parents at Northcote to be the ones whose secondary school children can walk or scoot to school?
Is there no-one out there who supports this free school who can answer direct questions and just admit self interest?

[JoanHolloway]

@ Happymama
I'm afraid I need to correct you. At no point whatsoever did I claim Ashcroft was not good enough for my son. Ashcroft was actually one of my secondary school choices.
However, as I'd put Chestnut Grove as our first choice, in keeping with Wandsworth secondary schools admissions policy, that is where we were offered a place.

A few more points, I am the only person on this thread who sends their child to CG; if my experience outside Northcote library is anything to go by, then I am probably the only person on this thread who has visited the school.
Chestnut Grove has a great many pupils from the Battersea area, simply not from the Northcote area.
Is anyone seriously suggesting that children from Latchmere and surrounding areas etc which are much further away from SW12 are being given places over children in Northcote?
This has been said before, but it bears repeating; if you applied to CG, the vast majority, if not all of you, would get in on distance.
There has never, ever been any evidence provided that proves otherwise.
By evidence, I mean what TYT is referring to, for example, in 2005, 35 children from Northcote ward applied to CG and were denied on grounds of distance.
This evidence is not forthcoming, because it does not exist. Your children do not get into CG, because none of you apply.
Fair enough, but then be honest about it!

If you had started a campaign, because like Toby Young, you wanted your children to have a classical education and you felt that the local schools were not able to provide that, then I doubt your campaign would be facing such hostility.
Whatever you think of Toby Young, at least he is honest about the motivation behind his campaign; on his website he openly admits that he wishes to have an independent school for free.

In addition, I was frankly shocked by the assertion by some of the parents outside Northcote library, that CG was a bad school, where knife crime is widespread. Not one of these parents had ever visited the school, so what is this assertion based on?
I sincerely hope that people aren't making very nasty, unfounded assumptions about CG, simply because of preconceived notions about the race and class of the children that attend.
There is a word for that kind of thing, and as other people on this thread have pointed out, it is indeed, the elephant in the room.

ARK run a school that has a similar intake to CG.
http://www.burlingtondanes.org/secondar ... s/results/
The results seem to be remarkably similar to CG. Does this mean that Burlington Danes is a bad school too?

There is a saying that if you repeat a falsehood enough times, then people will believe it.
Did not one of you think that it might be an idea to actually ring the admissions office at CG, tell them your postcode and find out for yourselves what your chances of getting a place are?
It would appear that the answer is no, as I have never seen anything on this website that would indicate that any of you would even consider applying to CG, let alone actually do any research about the school.