Is tutoring a must Post Reply

[Vhopeful]

Firstly I would like to say this is such a "non-problem" but keen to hear from parents with kids that have been through both sides of the system (private & state).

Basically we are leaning towards sending our kids private as people have told us that if we don't go private at primary school that they would need hours of tutoring a week in order to get into a good independent school at 11. However if we do send them private the private schools do the exam prep work during school hours so you don't burden your child with tutoring in the evenings....

But is it really true, anyone have kids that went to primary school locally and got into a top independent secondary school without tutoring....or likewise anyone who went private and did/didn't require the exam prep tutoring.

When I mention tutoring here I am referring to specific tutoring for the 7+ and 11+ exams and not just general "help" with a subject or subject area.

Also, obviously a lot depends on your child's abilities but just keen to understand which of the state schools locally actually prepare kids for possible entry exams....

[NorthcoteLuvvie]

It's not an easy question to answer definitively but I'll try

Firstly, it depends where you want to send your children. The London day-school systems is getting more and more crowded so competition has never been fiercer. However, new schools do "come up" to meet the need in the way that local primaries do so many Wandsworth children will be looking at Royal Russell, Sydenham in addition to Dulwich, Whitgift, Alleyns Emanuel. A few years ago people wouldn't even know what those schools were!

So to try and help...

1. independent preps are judged on their leaver's destinations. That means that EVERYTHING in the last 12 months of a child's time pre-11 plus is focused on getting a place. Practice interviews, mock-exams and discussions on the "right" school are all a big part of their preparation, state schools do almost none of this. In fact one local "super" primary is dead set against helping it's children moving to an indy secondary on idealogical grounds and the head will try to dissuade parents to go down that route.

2. independent preps will also coach the parents on the right school for their children. This sounds a bit trite but it's true. I have one friend whose children were at a state school and they were convinced they were geniuses and were then gutted when they didn't get a place at Kings/Westminster etc. A good prep school will point out realistic options and then steer the child towards them, making life less stressful for all.

3. the child is surrounded by friends going through the same process so a) they take it seriously and b) they get less stressed because it's "normal"

4. if your child does a really bad job in the exams a prep head can pull strings to get them in somewhere (not always but this does help)

So although the academics ARE important I personally think it's all the other stuff that represents the value the prep schools give.

In summary...

1. A bright child (and I mean properly bright, not just top of the class) will sail into any indy school no matter what as they'll want them (and give scholarships) for their own result league tables. You'll know if you have one of these children and being in a G&T programme is not enough!

2. A reasonably bright child (top sets) will be able to get into the second tier schools (Emanuel, S&C) with no tuition but will need tuition to get into Dulwich, Whitgift, Alleyns et

3. An average child with no tuition will struggle to get into any of the schools.

Hope that helps

[NorthcoteLuvvie]

Forgot to add, a lot of indy kids are also tutored to try and bump them up a level (e.g. Emanuel to Whitgift, Dulwich to Alleyns). This is becoming such an issue that some schools are now asking schools to declare if a child is tutored, so don't think than indy schools are an oasis of calm and parents aren't trying to game the system.

Personally, I'd stay state as long as you can...

[Pud1]

I think that if your child is bright, ie is predicted to get good level 5s at the end of Y6, then they should be fine at a state school with perhaps a small burst of tutoring to get them used to the format of entrance exams. If your child isn't quite as bright then I would question whether, if they need to be tutored up to the eye balls to get into an independent school, it's the right place for them. As you say, the independent schools are increasingly aware of this. They also ask for reports form primary/prep schools and they sometimes speak to the Heads.

[ladyofacertainage]

I would like to echo pud1, I have 3 children in private secondary school, they did go to private primaries but were not tutored as well, unlike many there who were there. One is now in sixth form and I have seen many examples of children who were tutored to get in and then had to continue with tutors to keep up with the work. The only time I would tutor is to help a state school child understand and practise the exam system, For many schools they will have covered all the curriculum they need at any primary but the state schools don't prep them or do reasoning which is their only disadvantage. Others will disagree with me but tutoring to bump up grades often leads to difficulties later on when they can't cope in the school they have only just squeaked into.

[ouided01]

Really glad someone asked this question, which I have had in mind for a while now. Many thanks Vhopeful and thanks to all parents who replied.
I have a daughter in Y5 in a state primary. I think she is bright and able, and so do her teachers. But her state school doesn't prepare the kids for 11+, especially verbal and non-verbal reasoning, which I find unfair because Wandsworth test is V and NB! So coaching/preparation is required. However, my big question is why are private tutors needed? Can't the child and his/her parents prepare at home, using the available resources? There is plenty of 11+ resources, including Bond, mock exams, sample papers, etc. So value add do tutors have? Do they have any non-public information or non-public resources that we parents don't?
I appreciate it is more the coaching for exam techniques that tutors do, but that too can be done by parents, especially if they are academics themselves.

I really would like to know the opinion of parents who have and haven't tutored their children. Perhaps I am missing something? Why is a private tutor a must if one can coach/help their own child and go through the mock exams at home?

Also, since we are in this topic, could anyone please recommend good state schools ( including grammars ) accessible from Wandsworth/Clapham junction area? I pretty much know the independents ( Alleyns, JAGs, putney/wimbledon high, Emanuel ), and the local state such as Graveney, Bolingbroke ( good feedback but no results yet, so unsure ). Grammars: Tiffins no way as SW11 isn't in their catchment area, Henrietta Barnet: insane commute, Wallington/Nonsuch: may be. Tonbridge: also an insane commute.
Am I missing any good state schools that are accessible from our local area?

Thanks vm

[NorthcoteRoad]

Hello,
This is a very interesting post thank you. I d like to ask another question, honeywell and belleville have very different leavers destinations, it seems honeywell destinations are half private half bolingbroke when very few Belleville kids go private. The difference is surprising given that they should now have the same academic level and demographics in year 6. Anybody having experience of trying to go to a private secondary from belleville? Do you have to tutor like mad? How do you explain the difference with honeywell? Not sure we d want to go private for secondary (who knows!) but it is a bit of a worry to be giving up the option that early if going to a state primary.
Thanks.

[Test Club Tutors]

Quite right, Ouided01, most Wandsworth state primaries do not provide much (if any at all) preparation for the Wandsworth test. They simply don’t have time after delivering the National Curriculum. I also agree with you that a private tutor is not necessary, and that parents can buy the practice material and work with their children themselves. However, I have found that many parents don’t have the time, or would rather spend the time they have with their children in more joyous pursuits, which is why I set up Test Club, following many requests from parents such as these.

I prepare children for the Verbal and Non-Verbal tests, that constitute the Wandsworth test, in small groups, which I’ve found to more motivating and less overwhelming than 1:1 test tutoring. We work on strategies and timing using past papers and published material. I have a few spaces left if you are interested – check out my website, https://www.testclubtutors.com

If you prefer the DIY approach – choose materials from the same exam board as the schools you are applying for (for the Wandsworth Test it is GL Assessment, for Independent schools ask the admissions manager if this information does not appear on their website), choose one of the handbooks that explain how to answer the questions, and work on pace as the VR and NVR papers are very tough on time and in my experience, many ill-prepared children simply run out of time and have to guess the questions in the last part of the paper.

Hope this is helpful.
Kath
Ps on a purely personal note, I have one child at Independent secondary and another at a selective state secondary, and having been through both processes recently, I would recommend thorough preparation, either at home or with a tutor, as the competition for places is fierce! Good luck!

[ouided01]

Thanks Kath, that's very helpful. I didn't know there are different exam boards for the VR and NVR by the way, so certainly I have still a lot to learn about the system. Totally agree about the fierce competition yes.

[Hollyheaven]

If your child is bright and able then he/she should not have to be endlessly tutored in able to gain entry to either state or independent secondary schooling. as others have stated if your child then scrapes a place at a chosen school due to endless rote learning they then may struggle in the chosen school/banded class they then go in to and furthermore may then be unhappy . Secondary school is a huge transition from the safe and cosy world of primary so for me it was imperative that my daughter felt comfortable and secure at the right school for her and was placed in the correct banding to reflect her ability. We bought the Bond, Letts books etc to prepare her for the verbal and non verbal reasonning as these are not aspects covered in the National Curriculum and she attended a tutoring class for a few months but nothing too heavy! She did very well and now attends Graveney School as gained a place due to her pass mark but obviously possessed a fair bit of intelligence and acquired exam prep methods rather than through relentless tutoring !!

[ouided01]

Can't agree more Hollyheaven. I share the same view. Is your daughter happy at Graveney? I attended an open day last year. The results and reviews certainly look good and the children and parents appeared happy. I just felt it was too big, almost like a university campus, I worry my child could get lost, and things are rather impersonal there. Am I over-worrying perhaps? Thanks in advance for sharing your experience.

[Hollyheaven]

Hi, yes my daughter is very happy at Graveney. It is a large school but doesn't feel too impersonal and the kids seem to love it! My daughter attended Furzedown Primary so did know many of the kids going in on the distance criteria but has made many new friends. Teachers are friendly and approachable and I have felt very comfortable approaching Head of Year on minor worries after being told the school adopt a very"stay back " approach! Year 7 and I believe year 8 too are years designed to ease the children in-to Secondary education in quite a softly softly way and I would certainly agree with that. Overall we are extremely happy with the school ! Good luck !

[LastMumStanding]

I agree wholeheartedly with Northcoteluvvies analysis- the challenge comes because you will not really know how smart your child is until you see how your child fares at school and get some results! The purpose of tutoring in my mind is to prepare children for the format and requirements of these private exams - since they are different from anything your child will experience at state school. And I have found (having put 2 state-school educated children through some private coaching for 12+) that they have benefitted from (a) the chance to practice maths already taught at school (b) more experience in planning and writing essays in one sitting (in school this is often done over several lessons) (c) exam technique (d) the chance to practice spellings and expand their vocabulary and (e) get familiar with verbal and non-verbal reasoning papers which are a particular beast. And yes, I do have experience of successful transition from Belleville to private school - my eldest got 3 scholarship offers from top-tier schools.

[ouided01]

Just wanted to come back to this thread after a long while. Thought I'd share my experience.
We've been through the 11+/Wandsworth test process and we're glad it's over. DD was offered places in 3 top indies as well as Graveney based on test. We are immensely proud of her. DD is bright and able, but without help and practice I don't see how a primary state-educated pupil can actually pass the test. VR and NVR, and a lot of commonly asked 11+ questions aren't taught in state primaries. Practicing timed papers is also key.
Until last year, I had no idea what it's like to prepare for 11+ exams. So we decided to get DD practice at home using sample papers, and plenty of 11+ resources.
However, the ones I particularly found challenging, for myself included, were VR and NVR. So following my post from last year ( see above ), I reached out to Katherine who is running Test club. I can't praise her enough, she is a super kind and amazing lady. Being a primary teacher herself, and a mum of a child who got into Graveney, she was very knowledgeable about the Wandsworth test and 11+ in general. She gave me sound advice on how to help DD with V/NVR if I wanted to go the DIY approach. I felt no pressure whatsoever to join her club. She explained to me how it works. Basically, a small group of kids meet for 1h once a week ( or less often ) to do a VR or NVR paper together. Katherine explains the tricks and rules to them, they do papers and go through questions etc. Nothing too heavy really. It did feel like usual practice at home, the only difference being we ( parents ) weren't the teachers To be quite honest, VR/NVR would have required a lot of concentration from us, it's not the sort of thing we were taught at school and so not that easy at all.

I thought we'd give it a go, and we haven't regretted it since, DD liked Katherine a lot, she told me she explained things much better than I did! She is such a great and inspiring teacher, had a lot of patience, and gave plenty of encouragement to the kids. DD felt much more confident with her VR and NVR after she had covered all aspects of reasoning with Katherine. She scored a high mark in Wandsworth test and got an offer from Graveney.
I wholeheartedly recommend Katherine to anyone who wants to get their DC up to speed with VR and NVR. The group is specifically targeted for Wandsworth test, which is GL-type VR and NVR, but the preparation is also relevant for 11+ exams.

In summary, a bright/able child can get to top selective secondaries ( state or independent ) with some help and a LOT of practice. The parents can tutor/help the child, certainly. But this requires commitment and knowledge of the parents about the sort of 11+ questions that may get asked.
Being busy full-time working parents, we found Test Club invaluable in providing a practice forum for VR/NVR in a friendly home atmosphere. The rest ( basically mostly Maths practice ) was done at home.

Regarding tutoring to eye-ball thing, totally agree I'm against that, especially if you would know DC would struggle later. I wouldn't have let my DD go through the 11+ experience if I knew she wasn't able. It's all about giving opportunities to DC to succeed. They don't get prepped at primary schools at all. I do believe, however bright the child is, without prep and practice, there is little chances to shine in 11+/Wandsworth exams.

Now that I have been through this, I see 3 ways for getting to selective secondaries. The easiest are (1) put them in a junior private school, they usually automatically transfer to same-school senior school, or (2) put them in prep private. Third option and toughest is primary state + preparation/practice and commitment at home or outside school.
If your DC is bright, he/she'll get in no matter where they come from.

Hope that helps.

[hblomefield]

Sadly there is no black and white answer to this question. As ever, it depends entirely on the individual. There is certainly an argument that too much schooling/tutoring can be detrimental for some, whilst others find tailored tutoring support hugely beneficial.

Here is a recent article that might help:
http://independentschoolparent.com/prom ... ducation/

Best wishes
Harriet