Controversial question regarding faith schools Post Reply

[actuallyadad]

VERY good point

No, it is absolutely NOT right that state funded schools are allowed to prioritise children of a particular faith for entry.

Imagine if there were some NHS hospitals which prioritised Catholics, or C of E, or people of any other faith. There would be an outcry. It would be illegal discrimination. I cannot see why state faith schools are treated differently.

However, since the faith schools generally get good results, and since the church/churches are still pretty powerful, I doubt that any government is going to change the faith school set up any time soon

[M&mmum]

Thanks to everyone for their posts, very interesting!

We are actually in the catchment area for 3 faith schools where we live but are not eligible as we are not religious. Is this illegal discrimination? and does anyone know of previous legal cases against faith schools for this reason? (Not that we have time or money to go down that route but just out of interest)

[ExitPursuedByABear]

Is the reason you're so interested in these particular schools because of their results? Because those schools very likely would not perform as well if they suddenly weren't Catholic and took a totally different demographic. I have an inkling some parents would like the school and ethos to stay exactly the same, just let their one child in.

I'm not religious by the way, I just think the answer is improving all schools. Perhaps you could start your own excellent atheist free school?

[Cloud]

Wheresmyschool - please could you let this forum know which faith school your friend was talking about? To be clear, they should not be doing what you describe and in my experience the faith schools are very strict and legalistic about the admissions criteria - i.e. they stick to it very closely so it really surprises me that a vicar/priest would consider not giving a reference to a family because they didn't participate in a school/church event. It doesn't make sense to me either if they already have kids there, because once you're in, you're in (and so are the siblings). It would be useful if you could clarify. I find that there are a lot of rumours about faith schools (and in particular a lot of Catholic bashing), which I have never understood, but it could be the explanation given by others (i.e. that they tend to perform better than average).

I must declare an interest in this - my child attends a faith school. I agree it's unfair we had a choice that some parents didn't. However, if we hadn't gained a place at this particular school, we wouldn't have got into our second or third choices because of the catchments (and we couldn't afford to live near the catchments).

In my child's school, there is a minority of children with one or both British parents. There are a number of countries and cultures represented. There are a large number of children who either qualify or almost qualify for free school meals. Yet the school achieves very good results. All the children at the school do have to satisfy faith criteria (e.g. church attendance).

Now, compare that demographic to some of the BTC schools that are discussed so commonly on this site, with the tiny catchments (and requirement for you practically to be a millionaire in order to buy a house in catchment these days). The latter situation is arguably more unfair because it is in effect discrimination on the basis of wealth rather than faith.

Anyway, it will always be a controversial issue. The only solution to the schools problem would be to allocate places based on a lottery system, which would ensure that resources were allocated equally across the board.

[Erykah]

I would say there is a lot of respect at my son's school for people of other/no religion. For people generally irrespective of class/ethnicity/religion.
The school also has to offer a percentage of their places based on distance criteria alone

[Chucka]

Parents - please stop fibbing!

We are in near proximity to a faith school. I have been a practising person of that faith for very many years prior to any time when schools were of any concern to me,

Sadly the 'faith' school is attended by many who have simply done whatever it takes in order to get a place in the school. For some of them, significant aspects of their lives and allegiances are in clear contradiction of the teachings of the faith.

I wanted a faith school where my child would share a commonality with others, where my child would be comfortable speaking about Jesus, the gospels and prayer. I do not think one can understand or be sensitive to diversity of belief where one has not experienced unity of belief and clear reasoning that seeks truth. I also wanted a school where my child would not feel left out because we are selective in choosing and monitoring our use of TV and other media.

Although there is some good RE teaching in the school the family lives and stated views of many of those attending do not at all reliably reflect the Church teachings which they have signed up to. Some are unreservedly resentful that they 'have to attend' church! Sadly by example the children are being taught that lying and double-standards are ok if it gets you what you want.

I am seriously considering deciding deliberately on a non-faith school when we re-locate if the same hypocrisy exists. My taxes do go towards paying for non-faith schools as well as faith schools. But faith schools will lose their funded status - and rightly so - if they are simply places where the pushiest of parents get an 'exclusive' school for themselves. Results are amazingly good because the majority are privileged and can also afford copious amounts of out of school tuition and often have nannies and one parent who financially does not need to be in full time employment. Those who truly do hold the faith are made to feel left out and somehow prudish and 'difficult'.

It is up to us parents not to lie or pretend false allegiances to get into seemingly high achieving schools. Then both faith schools and other local schools will be populated by a more representative socio-economic share of the population.

[Princess Leia]

In my humble opinion, in this day and age, there are is no place for faith schools or single sex education in the UK. Both should be banned.

Both are archaic in my opinion, and do not prepare children for life in the modern world. A world where we are united and working together hopefully and not segregated in any way!

What people do in their spare time is their business, but education should not be mixed with religion of any kind. It would be great to see the UK lead they way in banning faith schools. Religious fundamentalism would have less chance to flourish as well, another bonus.

Religion and academic education should be separated forthwith!

[AHW]

I think it's worth pointing out that for Catholic schools at least, a large percentage of Sunday's offertory donations go towards the diocesan schools fund - in my parents' small parish (of mainly elderly churchgoers) it's around 40% of Sunday's takings, so those who are active Catholics (rather than those who just pay lip service ) are paying twice - once through taxes and a significant amount through their Sunday donations.

If you really don't like the fact that there are faith schools, then set up a Free School in your area. Having done it, it isn't for the fainthearted, but it means that you can (within reason) have the school that you want, without the 'unfairness' of the religious question.

[For the record, I am Catholic, but we've now moved from SW London. In the town we now live in, there are only three non-faith primary schools - all of the rest are CofE with one Catholic primary. ALL of the schools are oversubscribed - the CofE ones don't discriminate on religious grounds - it's purely distance - and for the best ones, the house prices are eyewatering, so it's still discriminatory - just on your purse, not your beliefs. FWIW, the Catholic primary takes a % of non-Catholic children so it's not purely for those who are in church on Sunday or arranging flowers.

[ResidentTootingMum]

I have two points to make:
1.) What on earth does “affluence” have to do with what faith you are. I can’t think of one religion in this country that says you have to earn a certain amount to join their faith. I am very certain that no priest/rabbi/imam etc would turn away any person of a “lower class” if they wanted to join the faith. I am a catholic and I have attended St Boniface church in Tooting for over 30 years, ie since I was a child. I come from a working class background and I can assure you that if you look at the demographic of our parish we are an extremely diverse group coming from all classes and backgrounds. Hence the school also has kids from all these groups. If you want to throw in the argument that only rich parents can buy a place close enough to the school to get in, then that is also rubbish. The community in Tooting is massively diverse. I know this from personal experience of the school.

2.) So let’s say for arguments sake there was no religious criteria for the intake to faith schools. I would imagine most parents only want to get their children into these schools because they perform well. Well, what about if you did get in. Do you actually not think that they children will be immersed in that faith? Would you be happy with that. I know in my Catholic school the faith is instilled into the children at every level. They are even taken to church with the class. So how would little Tommy’s parents feel if he came home quoting the Quran, Torah or the Gospel? It’s not just about the academic performance of the schools but also the faith that we want our children to be brought up in.

[Doman]

I'm very confused about the perceived relationship between religion and affluence. I don't see a correlation between the two at all.

Personally I feel that any child should be admitted to a faith school and it's quite shocking that the family's faith (real or pretend) has any influence on that decision. That goes for all faiths ... if the school is state-funded, then it should be open to everyone. The faith aspect is just like any other part of the school's educational ethos (like, for example, Montessori).

(I do think that there is a place for single sex education, Princess Leia, certainly at secondary level if not primary. I remember reading a study that said that girls perform better in a single sex environment so, as the parent of two girls, I would like to have that option available. I'm sure plenty of other people will disagree!).

[pigtails50]

Historically all schools (and Universities) were faith schools (from a History of Education in England):

Other Christians, along with liberal Anglicans and some Roman Catholics and Jews, preferred a less denominational approach and in 1814 founded the British and Foreign School Society for the Education of the Labouring and Manufacturing Classes of Society of Every Religious Persuasion (the British and Foreign School Society). Its schools drew on the pioneering work of the Quaker Joseph Lancaster. They taught Scripture and general Christian principles in a non-denominational form.

A third group, who wanted religion kept out of schools altogether, formed a third organisation, the Central Society of Education, in 1836...

The government was unwilling to intervene or take the lead for fear of appearing to promote one group over the other, so in 1833 it began giving annual grants towards school provision to both the National Society and the British and Foreign School Society. From 1846 similar grants were given to Baptists and Congregationalists (subject to an agreement about the reading of Scripture), from 1847 to Wesleyan Methodists and the Catholic Poor School Committee, and in 1853 to the Manchester Jewish community (subject to an agreement about the reading of at least part of the Bible)...

The question of faith in schools has been fought over since the introduction of mass education (and indeed the education of the generality was equally fought over).

It is not just faith schools who are subject to 'scams'. We all know of families who 'buy' or 'rent' in a catchment area to ensure their child gains admittance to their preferred school, who 'donate' to school funds to ensure that their application will be looked at favourably. What is not fair is that this tussle has become so bitter and acrimonious that it is now seen as okay to waste public money in fighting court cases over admission criteria - whether it be for a faith school or not - rather than spend that money on the education of our children.

I want my children to be brought up with faith and in the current climate I feel that it is even more important that it is seen as a community rather than just family. Perhaps (and reaching into controversial territory here) all schools should go back to being religious in the sense that children are taught the ten commandments, go to Church as part of their education and learn the difference between the charity of giving money and giving time/thought.

The majority of parents actively want the best for their children but, what do our children want? As we shove them into the 'perceived best' primary school, do we ensure that they will be happy and achieve their potential or is it all just about us?

The question is not whether faith schools should be allowed or single sex schools, but whether we can as a nation put those things aside and actually work towards raising each and every school to be the best it can.

We have the most crowded classes, we are ranked at 20th place out of 34 world countries for the basics and our answer is to put our children into school earlier rather than being brave enough to do a fundamental overhaul of our education system.

So, as parents what do we spend most time arguing about - whether the faith school system is fair and equitable?

[kgarner]

As pointed out by an earlier poster, faith schools are partly funded by the religious organisation with which they are associated. Why would they do so if the schools were not handing on the faith? So you don't need to worry, proportionally fewer of your taxes are in fact supporting the local Catholics/Jews/Muslims/whichever faith you're having a go at today.

[Doman]

I don't think that this thread is 'having a go' at faith per se. Everyone is entitled to their religious beliefs. What is unacceptable is that faith is used as a discriminatory criterion for school places.

[Princess Leia]

Another reason to do away with faith schools completely, is that they are not obliged in the national curriculum to educate their pupils about other religions other than their own.

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-school/faith-schools

What right minded parent would want that sort of tunnel vision drummed into their child?

[kgarner]

Why would -for instance -my local Catholic church give a substantial amount of its annual income to its associated Catholic school, providing a strong Catholic ethos and religious formation, and *not* prioritise the Catholic children It would most benefit? All faith schools allocate places by priority to looked after children. Children are next in line who are going to gain something from the religious element *which is being funded by the church*. Why should another random group of people benefit from it over and above them?