Controversial question regarding faith schools Post Reply

[Doman]

If you replace 'local Catholic' with 'local taxpayers' then it's clear why people find this discrimination unpalatable. If a school is 100% funded by the church, then they can admit who they like. If it is state-funded, any local child has the right to attend. It's simple.

You are also pre-supposing that a child automatically follows the religious beliefs or non-beliefs of its parents. My daughter might choose to follow a faith of her own accord. Attending a faith-based school might help her to make that decision.

[asdfghjjkl]

If the Catholic and CofE schools didn't tend to perform at the top of the tables, then this thread would likely not exist. There is always resentment that these schools tend to perform well, so non-faith families want in, and then get pissy that there is a faith criteria.

Of course there is a faith criteria! What is the point of having a faith-based school if the population it served was not of that faith? duh.

In my opinion, there is a clear correlation between the performance of the school and the faith-base, and it is not because the belief system creates superior performance or intelligence. However, by being dedicated to a faith, there is already showing a higher-level of discipline by the family in the particular rearing of the child. It takes a lot to make it each week to services and put your own particular family social lives second to your commitment to a church. If you can do that, there is a stronger likelihood that the same push will go towards education.

Second, the strong link between the schools and local parishes mean the community factor is upped considerably. This also makes for an enhanced learning environment.

There is no separation of church and state in the UK as there is in the US, so it does make perfect sense that a Christian nation (legally speaking) would fund church schools. Because of the diverse population and the modern take on this constitutional foundation, other faiths than CofE are included. It is true that these schools ask for additional funding from families.

Sorry, but it all just comes across as sour grapes when I hear these arguments. I find is fantastic that there is the diversity in schooling. These faith schools are oversubscribed, and while they all would take non-faith families, because they are oversubscribed they are already full of families of faith wanting in, so those places get allocated accordingly. If there are clearly so many families of faith who want to avail of this form of education, why the hell knock it? Is it taking a piece of the pie away from non-faith schools? I don't think so. And if you are not of that faith, why would you want to be there anyway? And if your argument is that there aren't enough schools, then shouldn't you be grateful that these schools exist with additional funding provided by the religious institutions?

[Cloud]

@PrincessLeia - no matter what the 'official' policy is, I think you'll find that most faith schools do teach about other religions. My child's (faith) school organises fairly regular visits to places of worship of other religions and teaches the children about other religions from an early age. I myself didn't go to a faith school and wish I had had that sort of educational experience!

[ans]

I live in Kingston where this school is, although my daughter is going to the other CofE school as we attend that church, which also happens to be our local school. Our church doesn't have an issue with church attendance for school the congregation catchment is some 20 miles.

As other posts have suggested a the churches attached to the schools fund a % of their school! The congregation also volunteers within the school. Which reflects the % of non faith to the attendance.

In Kingston there is a shortage of primary and secondary schools as with Wandsworth, this needs to be addressed by government and free schools are not always the answer.

The school mentioned in the report is simply following the stance of the diocese of southwark, as they have removed church attendance from the majority of CofE schools in this area, thus removing the issue entirely.

As part of our benefit/ state funded system there will always be sectors that are not used by some people. Surely it all adds to the richness of our society, faith, no faith, children, no children.

[chelseadad]

I have to agree with those who think that funding schools that select on grounds of faith is injust. The main injustice is against the child herself, who suffers or benefits from restrictions or access to vital services, for reason that have nothing to do with the child, but rather the parent and their religious, or nonreligious, beliefs. It is a cultural quirk that people even contemplate this a s being fair in a liberal democracy.

There are plenty of religious schools that open their services to ALL child regardless of faith. I have no problem with that. Allowing schools to decide who they provide state funded services is doing an injustice to children.

[chelseadad]

If the Catholic and CofE schools didn't tend to perform at the top of the tables, then this thread would likely not exist...
Of course there is a faith criteria! What is the point of having a faith-based school if the population it served was not of that faith? duh.

You are inaccurate on two counts:

1) Many faith based schools do not perform well.

2) Many faith based schools are NOT religiously selective.

[chelseadad]

It is worth remembering in this discussion that few argue against religiously selective schools at all (for example, in the private sector). The question is, in an economy that currently spends more money on paying off the interest on our national debt, than it does on education, is it fair/right/just to allow resources to be siphoned off to institutions whose main aim is obviously to evangelise children into their religion, or should we just adopt a civically neutral, evidence-based approach that is open to all dependent on the needs of that child, rather than her parents religious choices.

[chelseadad]

Thanks to everyone for their posts, very interesting!

We are actually in the catchment area for 3 faith schools where we live but are not eligible as we are not religious. Is this illegal discrimination? and does anyone know of previous legal cases against faith schools for this reason? (Not that we have time or money to go down that route but just out of interest)

Yes it is discrimination. Its discrimination against your child, because of your religious choices. The state is failing your child, in my view.

[Chucka]

What exactly is discrimination? All parents want to sent their children to a school that reflects their faith- whether that is agnosticism, atheism or any other belief or 'non-belief'. And no one exists in a belief-void.

[chelseadad]

What exactly is discrimination? All parents want to sent their children to a school that reflects their faith- whether that is agnosticism, atheism or any other belief or 'non-belief'. And no one exists in a belief-void.

No one is arguing that parents shouldn't have the right to send their children to schools that reflect their beliefs. The question is to what extent should the state subsidise these choices. Why religious beliefs and not political? Why can't someone send their child to a school that excludes non-British students? The disabled? And yes, even another gender?

As I have written before, as a nation we spend more on servicing our national debt than we do on education. We must ask what is a good and fair use of that money, and if subsidising a parents desire to send their child to a school that ONLY admits children with similar beliefs is good value for money, and just.

[ans]

Given that the school St Luke's as have others in Kingston removed their faith criteria on the admissions these schools are for the whole community. Other schools will follow suit, usually without fanfare it is worth checking the admissions criteria before applying,

[ans]

Given that the school St Luke's as have others in Kingston removed their faith criteria on the admissions these schools are for the whole community. Other schools will follow suit, usually without fanfare it is worth checking the admissions criteria before applying,

[ally30_1998]

Personally, I disagree with Faith Schools but that is because I disagree with religious indoctrination of children.

Religious faith isn't necessary for schools (and indeed people generally) to behave decently and do the right thing with regard to others around them.

I'm not anti-religion in any way. Ultimately people should be able to believe what they want and live how they want as long as they're not hurting others.

I would like to see statistical evidence from poster that says parents of children attending catholic schools are more likely to be together as they don't believe in divorce. That's quite a controversial statement in my opinion.

[twice_as_nice]

I always thought faith schools were in part funded by the church???? is that not the case?

I also think that this statement in the article is pretty ridiculous and insulting….:

Earlier this month, a group of left-leaning clergy and laypeople published an open letter calling for Church of England schools to stop selecting pupils based on faith, claiming it discriminates against the poor.

how does faith have any bearing on wealth?

[chelseadad]

I think there are probably enough school to accommodate religious and non religious school.
And if you are not of a certain religion, why would you want to attend that school anyway?

The reason for the popularity of religiously selective schools (unlike religious school that are open to all, generally) is that it is a form of selection that can be gamed. Same as with geographical selection (good schools in small catchments like Honeywell and Belleville, which are not religious schools). Parents who value education are more likely to do what it takes to get their child in.

And in answer to your first question, Wandsworth suffers from an overrepresentation of religiously selective schools, more so than any other borough in London. When I lived in Battersea and was considering primary schools, of the sixteen in my vicinity, nine selected on the grounds of religion!!!