Mums? What about dads? Post Reply

[supergirl]

Hi Benaldo and welcome to the site (i m a married woman with children).

Before moving on to some of your points, I just want to congratulate you as for your first thread you ve hit the jackpot and got NVN on fire! I think Papinian you have competition and you must up your game
It s a promise for interesting read in 2016!

Yes i agree that it is the everyday little things, that taken separately we dont find important, that perpetuate the deep rooted idea the all girls things are pink and all boy things are blue. Perhaps it is time for NVN to move on to a more gender neutral local site.
I agree that the original target market was the mums but after... What? 7 yrs? The site has evolved and now au pairs, nannies, local employers, independant (or not) retailers, dads, etc are using it and find it a good resource. I back this just based on the thread you can find.

So yes perhaps it is time to re-brand NVN: a local forum for local people? Or smthg similar?

BUT... Benaldo, you must never forget that men and women are not wired the same. Even if you raise your children gender neutral (it us possible) you will see huge differences. For one a girl/woman talk. Even when she says that she is introvert and not cery talkative she will experience emotions that will either need to get out somehow either talking or writing. Boys/men experience emotions too and have to deal with them too but the way they go about it is very different.

So (and i dont know the stats to back me up), a woman/mum would be more enclined to post a thread on such a site to seek support, reassurance, answers, advices or just to share as per the the thread about Capital. Thats what women do (amongst plethore of other things) so yes this site is called "mums". There is absolutely NOTHING sinister or sexist in the name.

Like it or leave it, we all love when dads are involved. But i suspect you know that and you just wanted to make a point (and have a good laugh at the same time).

[benaldo]

Why join a site if you have such an issue with it?
And what a way to join and start some kind of argument about it

I don't have 'such an issue' with the site - it's really useful. I'm suggesting it could be for parents, not just mums, and it could be less pink. It's reinforcing gender stereotypes.

I didn't start an argument - people reacted very negatively to my observations.

[benaldo]

And of all the things that need dealing with in terms of sexism this site is not it !
That's what annoyed me

All the crap women have to deal with and a man comes along having a go

You're not listening - I'm also saying that women have to deal with lots of crap, and I'm saying this sort of site could be a large part of the solution. Men being proactively brought in could be part of a solution. So when I, as a person (male or female - doesn't matter) signed up to a website that is really useful for parents and about which there is nothing comparable, and got a welcome email assuming I was a mum - when that made me think that could be a sexist assumption, I think that's fair enough. I think that's something that could be discussed.

I'm sorry to have offended people, but I'm trying to make a constructive point.

[benaldo]

Shall I now go to a gay for and complain they don't talk about straight issues enough

I thought this was a site about parenting. It's really useful as that, and men are on here and allowed on here. It's not just a site about being a mum, whether you like it or not, and no matter what the welcome email says. The information and discussions are useful and interesting no matter which parent you are. I think your comparison to a gay issues forum is crass. You clearly have no idea how sexist you are.

[benaldo]

Hello everyone
Thank you so much for all the comments on this thread.

There are a number of really really important and interesting questions raised here and I'd love to reply to them right now but I am out tonight and want to reply in a reasoned manner.

Putting aside, however, any NVN specifics can we please please please keep this conversation friendly?

I haven't had to lock any threads in December so far and I'd hate for this to be the first of the Xmas season!

Thank you, as always, for using NVN!

Thanks Annabel - sorry if I've offended people or been a bit stroppy in sticking up for myself. I want to keep it friendly and am happy to do so!

[benaldo]

Hi Supergirl, and thanks for the welcome! Really appreciate your words, and I'm glad to be here. I've often dipped in for info or to find out What's On for boys aged 0 and 3. I signed up earlier this week to ask something about primary schools, but then felt compelled to post something about the welcome email, which surprised me in it's gender focus. I'm glad at least a couple of people are seeing where I'm coming from!
Just to reply to a couple of your specific points:

Perhaps it is time for NVN to move on to a more gender neutral local site.... a local forum for local people? Or smthg similar?

I think it works because it's for parents, so I think as a local site it woudln't have that USP. There's streetlife, etc., for that. I personally would like it to be parenty.

BUT... Benaldo, you must never forget that men and women are not wired the same. Even if you raise your children gender neutral (it us possible) you will see huge differences. For one a girl/woman talk. Even when she says that she is introvert and not cery talkative she will experience emotions that will either need to get out somehow either talking or writing. Boys/men experience emotions too and have to deal with them too but the way they go about it is very different.

There are differences but it's impossible to know just how far they run outside of all the million cruddy influences that are out there. My 3 year old boy likes pink, for now, and princesses, but that'll wane as the wider world markets muscley men to him.

I believe that many differences are just from societal reinforcements, as discussed - and for which this site plays its part. Boys are taught to be tough, to not cry - so they talk less easily to each other about emotions when they're older. I personally think that a massive amount of it is social conditioning.

It's a circular logic to have a pink website called NappyValleyNet (no mention of mums), and then say it's mostly mums on there talking. For reasons for sheer numbers that will be the case, but perhaps dads talk less because they're less encouraged to. Perhaps masses of mums don't talk either.

But there we go - good to discuss! I'd better get on with some work or I'll never get home to my budding Spiderman!

[jg75]

There's definitely a valid point being made by Benaldo and I agree that it's worth considering some sort of rebranding. I'm member of a network targeted at parents working in the city. It used to be called 'Citymothers' and has been rebranded recently to 'Cityparents'. It is always valid to have a man's point of view (whether a dad or not) on a lot of the posts. Also my hubby helps a lot with the school pick up and drop off and sometimes finds it hard at the school gates when most of the parents are mums - so anything to make it easier, and to encourage men to help with childcare and make it less of a woman's 'thing' should be encouraged.

As I have already said, I also think that gender equality in the workplace can only be achieved when men ask for, and are granted, the same rights as working mums. So Papinian, I sympathise with you about your flexible working request and find it really sad that so many employers have that attitude. I'm lucky enough to be employed by a relatively progressive employer, and there are more men working part time at my section at work, which is great. However, I do think there is a long way to go, and unfortunately a lot of the discrimination faced by women does not show up in statistics. For example, on equal pay: yes, the UK has made a lot of progress and I feel lucky to be working in a relatively equal environment. What the statistics don't (and can't) tell you is the number of women who have been passed for promotion, given sh#t work (because they have been placed on the 'mummy track' and it is assumed that their poor brains can't cope with the work now that they have children) and whose careers generally suffer after they have kids. As a result, they may be paid the same as men in the same role, but they SHOULD have been promoted a long time ago, and get stuck. That's why a lot of people despair and give up, go part time, etc.

Another unquantifiable issue is the unconscious gender bias taking place all the time. Men promoting other men in their own image. Women perceived negatively even though their behaviours are the same as men in the same role. 'Harmless' sexist jokes that are actually harmful because they perpetuate the wrong image and make women uncomfortable. These issues often affect women who are not parents as well, so it is not only because of women going part time.

As I'm sure you can tell, I can go on and on and on about this topic (and won't, don't worry), but it is cheeky to suggest that women and men are equal in the workplace.

[benaldo]

This is a really good and thought-provoking twitter account: https://twitter.com/EverydaySexism

[littlechicken]

Crying out 'sexism' just because this platform is created with women in mind first is outrageous and undermines the very real issue of sexism.
Sexism is constant, ingrained in the way society operates to the detriment of...women, not men.
If you are white, straight and middle class, then society operates in your favour.
It is like white people complaining about racism. It cannot happen because white people are part of the privileged majority. When it comes to sexism, men have the privilege. You complaining about a pink logo when a woman dies every 2.9 days as a result of male violence in Britain makes you sound self involved and ignorant.
Why is it a problem that the welcome email said "a mum's guide to south london"? There are men, users of this forum, who find a mum's guide to south london very useful.

[SW11_1234]

Maybe it is your stereotype.. I see a jaunty man with some cowboy boots and long fashionable hair pushing a pram who happens to like pink and shopping.. Your belief pink is only for girls has marred your judgement.

As for the gentleman and a van, he is a man, he has a van, he wears a hat and likes blue.. So be it..

Nothing wrong with your initial post benaldo, up until the last sentence, then it gets slightly confrontational, had this been omitted I have no doubt your responses would have been vastly different.

Welcome to the site, there are a few that will enjoy sparring with you I'm sure. I will try not to rise to it!

[benaldo]

Crying out 'sexism' just because this platform is created with women in mind first is outrageous and undermines the very real issue of sexism.
Sexism is constant, ingrained in the way society operates to the detriment of...women, not men.
If you are white, straight and middle class, then society operates in your favour.
It is like white people complaining about racism. It cannot happen because white people are part of the privileged majority. When it comes to sexism, men have the privilege. You complaining about a pink logo when a woman dies every 2.9 days as a result of male violence in Britain makes you sound self involved and ignorant.
Why is it a problem that the welcome email said "a mum's guide to south london"? There are men, users of this forum, who find a mum's guide to south london very useful.

I think you should read the other comments I've made in this string. White people can complain about racism, if there's racism happening. Why not?
I find this guide to south London very useful, but not because it's a guide for mums. How much of this site do you think is 'for mums' and not 'for parents'?

We should deal with gender stereotyping and inequality whether that's towards a woman or a man, and whether it's raised by a woman or a man. Only then can we have gender equality. ALL I'm suggesting is that a pink website about parenting that welcomes new members with the assumption that they're a mum, is playing a part in reinforcing those gender stereotypes. Don't you agree with that observation, at least, a little bit? Imagine I'm a woman pointing it out - how do you feel then?

I'm really not up for sparring, as you put it, which suggests I'm just here for a fight. I've raised something that I and others here have agreed is important. I suggest you look at the replies and wonder who is really doing the sparring.

[benaldo]

Maybe it is your stereotype.. I see a jaunty man with some cowboy boots and long fashionable hair pushing a pram who happens to like pink and shopping.. Your belief pink is only for girls has marred your judgement.

As for the gentleman and a van, he is a man, he has a van, he wears a hat and likes blue.. So be it..

Nothing wrong with your initial post benaldo, up until the last sentence, then it gets slightly confrontational, had this been omitted I have no doubt your responses would have been vastly different.

If it is 'my stereotype', where did it come from?! A life and world that perpetuates such tosh. Read my other comments - I do not think pink is just for girls. I put my eldest in his pink jumper for the annual nursery group photo this week, so there! And not to make a point - just because he likes it and I think he looks great in it!

I'm certainly regretting saying "sexist" rather than 'unhelpfully gender stereotypical'!

[littlechicken]

Sexism or racism can be experienced by women and people of colour respectively. Isolated incidents of discrimination based on gender or race towards a man or a white person are just that: isolated incidents. It doesn't mean you will continue to live your life at a disadvantage because of your gender/race.
So basically I am saying that discrimination does not equal sexism and it is not fair if men call out sexism if they have been discriminated against. In this case , you haven't been discriminated, you have been offended by what you perceived to be feminine only. The pink logo and the welcoming email to mum's guide to south london. As you said, the content is not discriminatory nor exclusive and you were also allowed to join regardless of your gender.
As someone else pointed out, it would all have been well had you not dropped the sexism bomb.

[benaldo]

So basically I am saying that discrimination does not equal sexism and it is not fair if men call out sexism if they have been discriminated against. In this case , you haven't been discriminated, you have been offended by what you perceived to be feminine only. The pink logo and the welcoming email to mum's guide to south london. As you said, the content is not discriminatory nor exclusive and you were also allowed to join regardless of your gender.
As someone else pointed out, it would all have been well had you not dropped the sexism bomb.

You're right, yes - I shouldn't have said "sexist". I didn't say the content isn't discriminatory. I said I continued into the site anyway, despite the pink and the "mums'" welcome.

The broad point that unhealthy gender stereotypes abound in those two things is surely something everyone can agree and act upon?

[littlechicken]

I disagree. You continued to a site which you found helpful despite the pink and mums welcome.
I feel it is your gender stereotypes that make you feel unwelcome in a pink page aimed primarily at mums.
Anyway, let's agree to disagree. Regardless, I am pleased you retracted the sexist part of your argument.