Mums? What about dads? Post Reply

[OoloK]

I thought the same Julian, wondered if it is just not a troll.

It's almost like going into a women underwear shop and telling them they are sexist for not selling men boxershorts.

[littlechicken]

@abevillemummy that is so typical!
@Julian I am quite intrigued. What is a WU?

[sid_seal]

For what it is worth, I did hesitate before joining this forum as it looked (no offence intended) too "girly" for my taste - and yes, I am a woman!
I was looking for a local forum like other areas of London have, and couldn't find anything that was really active. So I would personally welcome it if this forum was rebranded as a "local forum" as opposed to a mums' forum; the mummy in high heels with a shopping bag in the logo is hardly representative of many mothers on this forum!

However, I appreciate that I cannot walk into an existing establishment and demand that it is renamed/rebranded to please me... but I think Benaldo triggered an interesting debate.

[benaldo]

For what it is worth, I did hesitate before joining this forum as it looked (no offence intended) too "girly" for my taste - and yes, I am a woman!
I was looking for a local forum like other areas of London have, and couldn't find anything that was really active. So I would personally welcome it if this forum was rebranded as a "local forum" as opposed to a mums' forum; the mummy in high heels with a shopping bag in the logo is hardly representative of many mothers on this forum!

However, I appreciate that I cannot walk into an existing establishment and demand that it is renamed/rebranded to please me... but I think Benaldo triggered an interesting debate.

Just to, for one last time, stick up for myself in this thread, I didn't exactly "walk in and demand it rebranded", and what I've raised isn't "to please me". It's a suggestion that would help redress the huge gender imbalance that works against women, which, @sid_seal, you've noted with your comments!

To @Julian - I assume WU is wind up, and it's not that. Please do just read what I've written.

@Oolok - I assume "it" is me, and no, I'm not a troll. As above, perhaps actually read what I've said.

If anyone can tell me how what I'm raising is not based in wanting a more gender-balanced world that would work better for women, then please do so.

And if everyone railing against my comments believes I'm saying that men should get a better deal, then I've not explained myself well enough. I'm pleased that enough people have responded positively and understanding my point to make me think I haven't just been spouting misogynistic, sexist rubbish.

And on that note I'm going to turn off my notifications for this thread and try and drop a note to Annabel (if that's possible? No idea how) to see what she thinks and clarify what I'm raising.

Hopefully she won't disregard me as an eloquent troll, or take my comments in a flurry of misbelief and think I've gone into a "women underwear shop and told them they are sexist for not selling men boxer shorts"; or that I'm demanding "hey where are the dads"; or that I'm "a bit rich for joining a site and making a fuss"; or that it's my own gender stereotypes that are at fault for noting the pink and girly nature of this site; or that because I pushed on past discriminatory language of a welcome message that means I haven't been discriminated against; or that describing the welcome email as "extremely, and pointlessly, sexist" means I'm describing the entire forum as the same (thanks @AbbevilleMummy); or that raising this point equates to "going to a gay forum and complain they don't talk about straight issues enough"

etc.... etc........
Thanks for the chat, all.

[benaldo]

I'm really suspicious of "Benaldo".

The MO is "hi, I'm new to this, I'm nice and am just asking for opinions" . Then within a dozen or so posts he becomes very intolerant of any other views.

I've been on NVN for a fair few years now and I think that this guy is just trying to wind us all up.

xx

Hadn't quite switched off the notifications in time!
I'm not 'new to this', I've been on the internet for a while. And I'm not intolerant at all, thanks - how do you think I am?

It's a shame you can't read my thoughts for what they are.

[pie81]

Well I am very much not new to this site and I am a woman and a mother.

And I would also like to see it rebranded as for locals (not mums) and ideally with a more inclusive logo.

So even if benaldo's views are to be disregarded on the basis that he is new and a man (which I don't think would be right, by the by) perhaps my very similar views could be take into account?

Thanks

[supergirl]

I am also not new and i agree with Pie81. I think this site, which i like and IS really friendly, has evolved and therefore the probably the brand needs to reflect that.

Troll or not, tactful or tactless, i think without Benaldo's thread we would never have had this debate. I m really enjoying reading the views of what is NVN now and how it is perceived.

[Tap Arts]

Hi
I can really see both sides of this coin. On the one hand I agree with the comments around NVN being targeted towards mums as this group is the group most likely to be handling most of the child care. However, I also agree with the comments about internalising gender images and associations that perpetuates the problems noted above.

It's similar to feeling older if you see street signs depicting a person bent over with a walking stick- old and frail.in fact a really interesting US study with students demonstrated that when students were shown these types of old images they walked more slowly down a corridor than those in the control group. So what I am saying is that we do unconsciously internalise these images that perpetuates the issue. Not sure if there is a similar study about gender depiction, would be interesting to know. But for sure in a similar way, we and our young people must internalise the pink pram pushing mum. I actually rebel vehemently when I see that logo as it doesn't represent me; I'm not pink and fluffy, although she does look confident and professional....

I think NVN was created from the personal experience of a mum a few years back (not that long I know!) but perhaps then the issue of Dads and child care just wasn't as prominent as it is now....

Ummmm Nannabel, why don't I run a focus group for you, to try and explore this issue a bit more. It is fascinating and also timely for you in terms of redesign?

PS this is the female half of On The Wall- Belinda!

[Ferrywind]

Perhaps if Benaldo hadn't used the word sexist there wouldn't have been such outrage. But he is right re the branding. If there was a site for top executives (following cons on this thread stating there's a majority of men) - and their logo was a man with a briefcase in blue, and their default welcome was 'hello MR blogs' I don't think that would be right either. I wouldn't want my daughter (or me!) to feel excluded just because she had joined a group the majority of which are already men so she just has to shut up and go along with it! Just because the majority of top execs ARE men, doesn't mean it has to be perpetuated.

Take the word sexism out of it as is obviously an emotive issue for some, and just consider the branding on its own and whether that could be updated. Plus a more inclusive 'welcome to parents' message. I think that sounds sensible.

[muminsw12]

As a full time working mother of two I am with pie81 and supergirl - and benaldo - in thinking that the way this site is branded perpetuates stereotypes. I appreciate that its demographic has probably evolved over time but perhaps its branding should catch up with that. Clearly it is very parent focused so perhaps that is the angle rather than locals generally. As benaldo identified it's not that the whole site is sexist - clearly not - but it would be quite easy to describe it as a resource for parents and update logo, welcome email etc. I hope Annabel will take that as the constructive comment it is intended to be, and not a criticism!

More generally, it's clear to me that the more men/fathers are encouraged and allowed to take on roles that have traditionally been fulfilled by women the more we women will be accepted taking on roles that have traditionally been fulfilled by men - I've always seen the breaking down of gender stereotypes as mutually beneficial in that respect.

[benaldo]

I am also not new and i agree with Pie81. I think this site, which i like and IS really friendly, has evolved and therefore the probably the brand needs to reflect that.

Troll or not, tactful or tactless, i think without Benaldo's thread we would never have had this debate. I m really enjoying reading the views of what is NVN now and how it is perceived.

Tactless, but not a troll, honest! This is important stuff that I feel strongly about. I might've gone about it clumsily, but I'm only human and am hacked off with all the pink = girls = mums and blue = boys = dads.

(turned off the notifications but couldn't resist logging back in!)

[benaldo]

If this site were gender neutral, it could still have a 'Mums' corner' and a 'Dads' corner', or similar, for mum/dad specific chat.

[BFW]

I have to admit that I completely agree with Benaldo.

I can imagine that re-branding would not be that easy - name / logo / colour pink is now quite established. I really like this website but I would also prefer not to see a lady in high heels, carrying her shopping and pushing a pram as the logo....also because it does not look that inconspicuous when I am looking at the site at work !!

[BFW]

Agreed Mungomuffit .. perhaps not argued in the best way but I do agree with the underlying message. I got caught on the site by one of my male colleagues and I cannot tell you the sniggers it got in my mainly male team. I love the name as we do live in Nappyvalley, but I think the logo / colour could me made to be a little less mumsy ... hope I haven't offended anyone with that comment as no offence was intended ! As i said ... I love the site !

[galpod]

Chipping in because Annabel asked (haven't read everything--sorry). I agree the site can be more inclusive and perhaps slightly less pink. The fact is, if mums don't make it extremely easy for men to take care of kids, we are left with childcare responsibilities. NVN is such a tremendous resource for parents in this neighbourhood, it would be a shame if dads felt excluded or unwelcome. There's nothing wrong with a site that's aimed at mums, but I didn't get the feeling this was that site. Just my 2p.