Mums? What about dads? Post Reply

[rzlaprime]

Like many other people I happily use the site but it has always niggled at me that it is quite sexist. I wouldn't bother commenting except that the question was asked. I don't have any problem with the look of the site but I find the cliched supposedly funny stories on the weekly emails about the shortcomings of husbands borderline offensive, and enforcing the stereotype of mum's sitting around all bar one at NCT catchups moaning about their other halves.

how about the occasional story about women messing up? I'm pretty sure that happens too.

Please remember that most working dads round here are doing their best to provide for their family and be a good dad as well, but no-one's perfect and yes we might sometimes forget to put the tumble dryer on or whatever...

[erinisle22]

I think some great points are being made here. In my opinion, if you consider yourself to be attempting to promote gender neutrality in any part of your life, it drills down to the way that you speak. There is a site in Tooting that has very specifically named itself the Tooting Parents Network - and it is a space for everyone.
I think the mention of @everydaysexism is valid.
I for one would love to see a rebrand that is inclusive of all parents - especially since with shared parental leave is now something that is possible for people to take.

[actuallyadad]

@benaldo I agree with EVERYTHING you have said - here here!

I actually said it to "Annabel" once when I met her at the Northcote Road fete. Just got a shrug of the shoulders... (will get banned now ha ha)

[benaldo]

@benaldo I agree with EVERYTHING you have said - here here!

I actually said it to "Annabel" once when I met her at the Northcote Road fete. Just got a shrug of the shoulders... (will get banned now ha ha)

I've messaged Annabel and she replied, but she didn't quite address what I'm raising, and what so many people here now seem to be agreeing with. I hope she and whoever else runs the site can do something!

[freshairmum]

Just raising my hand too in support of rebranding / recolouring this site. Like a previous poster said a few pages back the 'girliness' of the site has always been slightly offputting for me too. The logo of the woman carrying shopping and pushing a pram has the implication that all mothers do is drag babies round expensive shops frittering away somebody else's money.

Although female I actually do support alot of what Benaldo and other men have said as I think the dads that do post on here provide a balanced and rational side to many of the topics discussed. Sadly I don't find the site as friendly as some seem to, and as this thread has shown (although a more controversial topic than some) there are a handful of contributors who always respond aggressively and in a bitchy tone almost as soon as a topic has been started. Whilst I don't disagree that Benaldo was a bit confrontational quite early on in his posting, everyone is allowed their opinions and a forum is for just that. But for discussion not slamming people's ideas / thoughts as soon as they're out.

The site was obviously originally meant to reach the large number of mums in the area who are responsible for the majority of childcare and domestic decisions that revolve around the daily lives of children, but there are many many men who do the best they can in the time they have at home. There are also many many women who work extremely hard to juggle it all, and it's indescribably hard. Gender inequality is everywhere and isn't right, but times are constantly changing and as many have said here let's start with our community and try to make it more equal on this site, so it is a more attractive place for all parents and carers whatever the topic being discussed.

To kick it off I shall also change my username to something more gender neutral...

[AbbevilleMummy]

i don't have an issue with a site being created by a woman aimed at women and don't feel the need every product/service/website to be completely gender neutral.

That said, I do find the branding a little dated to say the least and it does reinforce the 'Nappy Valley Mummy' stereotype well known across London that we are just wealthy tiger mums who shop and lunch whilst our banker husbands work on their bonuses! (I am none of those things btw but have been accused of it when I have told people where I live!)

It wouldnt bother me enough to mention it had we not been asked though as I know how much work, time and money goes into rebranding and not sure what the benefit would be?

[actuallyadad]

yes my wife would find the pink-ness of the site rather patronising too I'm sure...

[vendredimanche]

I LOVE this site because it is local and full of brilliant tips: thanks to posters over the years, I found a first-class gardener, plumber, tennis coach for my kids, personal trainer, babysitter, biscuit maker... I got fab ideas for kids and adults' birthday venues, presents, skiing holidays, camping trips, restaurants and so much more. Not to mention the second-hand clothes and equipment. It's an absolute godsend, especially as I work full-time and do not have a huge amount of time to spend at the school gates. Using this site, I feel as well informed as if I had attended a coffee morning!

But I've been reading this thread with interest as I would also welcome a rebranding of the logo and generally a less pink site!

Finally, (and possibly off-topic) something that always surprised me since my children have been attending school is the expectation that the class rep will be one of the Mums (with her husband organising a couple of "curry nights" for the other dads). The weekly email updates from the class reps about what the kids are up to the following week/ what to pack for clubs/ outings etc. are only sent to Mums (and the odd divorced dad). Personally, I've always found that pretty sexist.

[actuallyadad]

We have a Dad as a class rep - BUT one of the Mums sent an email to start a "Mums Only" class email list! What's she going to discuss that is mums only? Nail polish? Periods?! It means my wife gets a whole bunch of school emails that I don't get. Admittedly it's mostly nonsense from stay at home mums seemingly with not enough to do all day (sorry but I'm being honest!), but it's annoying for me as occasionally there is an useful/important piece of info that I don't get, purely based on gender!

Fascinating how this mother thought the Dads are too busy working to read these emails, and the Mums are not. In our family, the opposite is the case...

[FLH03]

Just adding in my thoughts as a long time user:
I absolutely love this website too, and am probably on it every day. It has changed and grown over the years and I think it is an excellent idea to review consider and make changes as time and attitudes change, so big respect and thank you for asking for our opinions. BUT you can never please all the people all the time, or even some of the people some of the time.
I see it as a mine of information for all things "local". My kids are older, so I like the fact that it isn't just babies and toddlers.
I notice the "heated debates" but have said on a number of occasions, "that's it no more NVN" because of the really horrible nastiness and rudeness that can come out, but I suppose that is the social media age, and something I have to be aware of to help my children deal with it. It does put me off posting on a lot of matters though, and I have probably read this post through 10 times in case there is something that someone will find offensive and slate me publicly, I just hate that side of all this.
Personally I don't read anything into the pinkness or logo (it seems retro vintage style to me), but maybe that's because the content (which I know about as a longtime user) is why I am here, and the name is good. Appealing to new users is a different matter. BTW - the Mumsnet logo is a take on the old Charlie's Angels TV show image which had 3 girls with guns, answering to an older faceless man, so make of that what you will! (I am that old)
The cheap kitchens stuff is really really annoying - there must be a way to block that surely?!

[putneydad]

Full marks to Benaldo for raising this important topic, and patiently and politely responding to a wide variety of responses. NVN is a great site that I have found useful reading for a number of years, and I do understand how it historically ended up making the assumption everyone interested in childcare locally is a woman. But it is 2015 and now the topic has been raised it is clear it is time for a change. This is not to say that men are in some way "hard-done-by" by this sexist assumption (yes it is sexist, even if - as its often the case - unintentionally). As a man I agree with some of the earlier comments that while we have made great progress on gender equality, many areas of life are still unfairly stacked in my favour. Quite the opposite to being hard-done-by, Benaldo is pointing out that the branding and the language is reinforcing a gender stereotype (that woman do the childcare) that is part of what sustains sexism against women in the workplace. This is something I also feel strongly about and definitely vote for a change - I am happy to chip in for a graphic designer to come up with a new logo if that's what it takes.

[benaldo]

No, you are totally out of line. Go and "neck a few pints", as you put it, put your Superman outfit on and climb up Tower Bridge.

This, is incredibly rude.

[benaldo]

Hello everyone
Thank you so much for all the comments on this thread.

There are a number of really really important and interesting questions raised here and I'd love to reply to them right now but I am out tonight and want to reply in a reasoned manner.

Putting aside, however, any NVN specifics can we please please please keep this conversation friendly?

I haven't had to lock any threads in December so far and I'd hate for this to be the first of the Xmas season!

Thank you, as always, for using NVN!

Hi Annabel
So there have been lots of comments from a number of different people, and doing a quick count I see at least a dozen (more than half) of those who've commented agree that a rebrand that made the site more gender-neutral would be a good thing for a more gender-equal society and therefore less sexism towards women.
What do you think?
I really like the site, get a lot of useful information and connections from it, but like many others I think the pinkness and mumsiness is now unhelpfully out of date.
Keen to hear your thoughts!
many thanks
B
B

[benaldo]

(actually, much more than half...)

[benaldo]

I assume this is an attempt to "bump" your thread because it had died... so I probably shouldn't fall into the trap...

It was incredibly rude of you to have made your first post a very strong criticism of what is a brilliant website, stating that it is sexist. You would do well to acknowledge the hard work that Annabel and the team do to provide us with a valuable FREE local resource that we are so lucky to have. Perhaps after being a member of the community for a while you could have made some constructive and positive criticism. As it was, you have gone about it the wrong way and you got the response you deserved.

So, I've said it privately, but I take this opportunity to publicly say a huge Thank you to Annabel and the team and I'm sorry that you have had to put up with some rather rude comments on here!

Not trying to bump, but there were a lot of comments, a lot supportive of a different approach, and it seems important that doesn't just drift off into the ether. I've said many times that this is a brilliant site, full of useful information and resources, but that it is dated and promotes gender inequality.

Annabel, and whoever else works on the site, are doing and have clearly done a brilliant job in getting it up, running and vibrant, and I hope people can see that I'm not here to claim that isn't true and extremely valuable. I'm not, and I think you know that. I'm not surprised people are defensive about a site that is well-loved, and the person who created it (also well-loved!).

So please just take the issue I'm raising, and that so many other posters here have agreed with (scroll on to pages 4 and 5), in the most positive spirit you can. This isn't just asking about a handyman, or a cafe recommendation - this is an extremely important topic. So yes, bumped, there we are.