Do local faith schools demand money from parents? Post Reply

[asdfghjjkl]

And by the way, if these schools tend to get higher results it is certainly not because they are costing the state more or unfair attention is given to them. It is simply because if you have a family that already is committed to lugging their family to church and participating in a community because they care so much about the environment, values, education their children are getting, then they are more likely to be the parents who are actively supporting and expecting high standards from their children in their education. You would simply have a higher proportion of these families at these schools. CofE or Catholic children are not better performers, but the over-subscription situation that naturally selects these families because they can demonstrate their faith and commitment brings these families together in concentrations, upping the standards. That, in turn, attracts better teachers who want to be a better schools, which further ups the standards. It just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[waitingforgodot]

Dear Actuallyadad,

Your examples are wrong and not like for like.

The state resources you mention ARE available to all as all kids get the same funding, only the poorest get more funding through pupil premium.

Catholics do not get exclusive resources, facilities and opportunities. They get the same as everyone else. If they have better schools is because the parents demand more. Is that giving them more opportunities? Having a catholic parent? If you think you give more opportunities to your children by being catholic, then become catholic. There is not club membership fee, you know? Open to absolutely everyone.

Are you saying then that children that live in richer areas, regardless of their religion, with parents that get involved in the schools and demand better results have more opportunities? Duh! Of course you have more opportunities if your parents are more involved in your education!! What are you going to do about it? Swap parents? Good luck with that

[livegreen]

I find all faith schools to be fairly hypocritical.
If church schools, for example, practised what they preached they would have more poor pupils than surrounding schools. They do not and in fact nearly always have lower FSM than surrounding schools. Their selection criteria often puts off poorer families / less well educated families who can be unaware of criteria till too late. Is this what Jesus would have wanted?

Further to add to the point about faith schools doing better academically. A recent study by COE said all of its higher academic scores could be put solely down to fact they had less poorer pupils. The Bishops were asked if they should change their admission criteria as a result and to encourage the people they should be helping......nothing has changed.
All those attending churches etc are supposed to be helping others - in fact many are simply helping themselves.
Also note - all these schools are state schools and receive exactly the same funding as other schools in the area.

[waitingforgodot]

Dear livegreen,

I dont think you know the Catholic Church or other Christian Churches very well. They have educated not just the poorest children in the UK but the poorest children in the WORLD. Missionaries give THEIR LIFES every day to teach children in the poorest parts of Africa, South America, Asia....gosh, every single continent! Not only do they educate but they risk their lives on a daily basis...

I had a work colleague from Chicago who told me, when we move on to this subject after a few glasses of wine, how the only people that were educating the very poor in Chicago were the Catholic Church. Nobody else gave a ****. The comment came from a Jew.

And you forget that often Catholic schools do well because of the parents input, not just in the school but outside too, not the other way around. So if you change the intake of the school, you may not get the same good results. The parents are the most important people in a child's education, not the Church or the Local Authority. There are some awesome headteachers out there that do amazingly well in poor areas but this is not always the case.

I understand you want to change the world. The Church has tried for 2000 years. Not as easy as it sounds.

[actuallyadad]

Gosh this is fascinating. I'm amazed that anybody could actually disagree with my suggestions for fairness, religious diversity and equality!

Taking the various points in order and keeping it short(ish)!

@Scottoc 5 million people is a lot of people. But only a small proportion of the population. Represent their faith by teaching kids about Catholicism of course, (except the sex education bit obviously), but why provide the 8% with special exclusive schools we all pay for but can't all get in? Are you suggesting all 8% religious minorities should get their own segregated schools? Sounds impractical and bad for diversity in society.

@ all the others - I think you misunderstood my point/I wasn't clear. I'm not saying catholic or any schools cost more than others particularly, I'm just saying that if you have a certain number of kids in the Borough and a certain number of state school places, it's unfair to pick the religion of a kid to select the school. It's unfair because it gives some kids more opportunity than others (eg catholic parents could go faith or non-faith, Buddhist parents don't have that facility, nor do atheists (35% of population says wikipedia).

Seems wrong that you could live right next to great state primary school but be C of E and not Catholic and not get in because you're the wrong religion. Sounds like discrimination on grounds of religion to me. That's illegal in the work place.

People keep saying faith schools are open to all. They're just not- you need a note from the vicar, to be baptized etc etc - see the Wandsworth primary school entry guidelines! Obviously you could just lie and pretend to be a particular religion and show up at church/temple/synagogue every Sunday, but you shouldn't have to. That sounds like the approach @Chutneymanic suggests which seems to make light of the religions faith people want to protect.

Imagine going to the GP at Thurleigh Road and them saying sorry we only have appointments available for Hindus available today - that would be insane. And a school having a policy of "sorry we only have school places at this school for [insert religion here] "- is the same thing!

[actuallyadad]

Dear livegreen,

I dont think you know the Catholic Church or other Christian Churches very well. They have educated not just the poorest children in the UK but the poorest children in the WORLD. Missionaries give THEIR LIFES every day to teach children in the poorest parts of Africa, South America, Asia....gosh, every single continent! Not only do they educate but they risk their lives on a daily basis...

.

But those are not situations where the education is state funded!

[waitingforgodot]

Dear Actuallyadad,

I dont expect you to lie to become a Catholic, just to consider becoming one. If you find out what it stands for (all horrible things like loving each other and treating others like you want to be treated, etc, etc...) and you still dont agree with it you should not become one. But then, it you dont agree with what they stand for you should not send your child there, right?

Assuming those atheist who do not agree with the ethos of the Catholic school, want to send their kids there, what do we do? Make it none Catholic so that we dont offend them? What have we achieved?

[waitingforgodot]

Dear livegreen,

I dont think you know the Catholic Church or other Christian Churches very well. They have educated not just the poorest children in the UK but the poorest children in the WORLD. Missionaries give THEIR LIFES every day to teach children in the poorest parts of Africa, South America, Asia....gosh, every single continent! Not only do they educate but they risk their lives on a daily basis...

.

But those are not situations where the education is state funded!

In many cases they are state funded

[actuallyadad]

Ok Chutneymaniac this has gone a bit weird and personal. I'm not engaging in a public debate with a stranger about my personal religious views. It's not about me "not caring about" a particular religion. This isn't the forum to deal with the merits of Catholicism or the ensuing arguments around contraceptives, gay marriage, female equality and how pedophile priests should be dealt with. And in any event, my kids are older and go to private schools. So it's not about me.

I'm just saying: I think in principle state school places, like other state resources (medical, welfare etc etc), should not be allocated based on religious belief. That is all!

[Cloud]

I'm not going to join in the debate about the pros and cons of faith schools but just to point out livegreen that actually faith schools don't receive as much state funding as non-faith state schools. This is because their premises are provided by the church. So for example, say you need to expand the school or improve the premises, that funding won't be provided by the council. A small proportion (I think 10% or thereabouts but don't quote me on that) is provided by the church, but the rest will have to be raised by the school itself.

That may be why faith schools do more fundraising, ask for contributions to building funds etc.

But I have never heard of any school making it compulsory to contribute. My children's school (Catholic) recently had some works done and needed to raise funds to pay for it. However they have been very careful about asking for donations, are very apologetic about it and have raised very little so far! It is a pity actually because if they don't reach the target the money will have to come from other funds for equipment etc.

I know three Catholic schools in this area well and I have NEVER heard of a compulsory or regular requirement to donate to a fund.

[Scottov]

Gosh this is fascinating. I'm amazed that anybody could actually disagree with my suggestions for fairness, religious diversity and equality!

I think the point is that you do not have a very well developed sense of these ideas, which require more nuance than you're proposing or are seemingly prepared to consider.

which is probably a good place to leave it.

[asdfghjjkl]

Actuallydad,

Can you point me to a location where there are faith schools, but no other local schools available, and therefore children are not getting educated or have to commute an inordinate distance?

I'm certainly not privvy to all schools in London, but for the most (if not all) part, the faith schools I'm aware of seem to be in addition to, not instead of, local state primaries.

Do you know of any children who were denied a reasonable education because the faith school took the place of any primary school at all, and discriminated on the basis of faith?

Again, all children are guaranteed an education by the state. This is just a way of segmenting on the basis of faith, in the same way high schools segment on the basis of gender, or even preference for sport over business studies, IT. No one is being denied education. The people who moan, moan because the faith schoosl tend to be better than the local non-faith. And I've addressed that.

Yes, you may live right next to a faith school, and not really want to have to walk 15 minutes to the non-faith state primary. But if there were no faith schools, that school wouldn't even have been there. Haven't you noticed that they are mostly attached to churches?

Aren't you a lucky duck that you are able to send your kids to private schools. Not so much for all of us.

[Cloud]

And just to add - it is also quite hard for faith schools to raise funds through sponsorship from companies, community groups etc other than the church. I know from experience - I hit a brick wall quite a few times because the religious link disqualifies them from a lot of types of funding!

I'm not trying to justify any schools seeking compulsory donations (which I believe is wrong), just trying to explain why some faith schools do need to do more fundraising from parents than others might.

[Scottov]

If church schools, for example, practised what they preached they would have more poor pupils than surrounding schools. They do not and in fact nearly always have lower FSM than surrounding schools. Their selection criteria often puts off poorer families / less well educated families who can be unaware of criteria till too late. Is this what Jesus would have wanted?

I'm not sure how you arrived at this bespoke objective, but setting that aside do you have evidence for these claims?

Further to add to the point about faith schools doing better academically. A recent study by COE said all of its higher academic scores could be put solely down to fact they had less poorer pupils.

could you provide a link to this study?

[livegreen]

A simple search on Google
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 73566.html

A better summary in the Guardian but cannot paste link - simply search "faith schools intake results"

Also Ofsted concluded in its report on Faith school that their perceived better results were attributable to their skewed intake.
Selective schools get better results than non selective schools is a fact and the reason Faith schools want to remain selective.

All of these reports are easy to find.

I'm yet to see the response of the Churches that they believe they are not selective....,