Considering a big renovation/extension project: advice please? Post Reply

[pie81]

We are thinking about doing a big building project on our house, in the next year or two. It would include a basement digout and structural work such as kitchen extension, removing supporting walls/chimneybreasts and changes to the roof, as well as cosmetic refurb such as new bathrooms/kitchen.

I know that there have been lots of big builds/refurbs in the local area and so would welcome advice from people who have been there and done that.

In particular I would like your advice about the best combination of contractors/professionals: is it best to use a big general building firm but my own separate project manager? We will definitely want our own architect - do we use them as project manager or not? Is it best to use a digout specialist for the digout and general builder for the rest, or is an "all in one" firm better? Do we need a quantity surveyor (I am not actually sure what this is)? Please tell me what worked well or not well for you.

Please note I am not interested in self-recommendations from builders/other professionals, just advice on the process please!

[jonathan @ hamptons]

Hi Pie,

Wow, sounds like quite a project!! We went through quite a similar process ourselves a few years ago and given my occupation, deal with these sort of things fairly frequently. As a rule of thumb I would have my own architect and also my own project manager. Yes of course your architect could project manage the build, but I do think that having an extra spoke on a project this big would be beneficial if only to give you a reality check at times. It's certainly not essential but in my experience I would.

We had a basement done more recently and if you're doing the whole house I would tend to get a basement company to do the dig and then a separate contractor to do the rest of the work. Basement digs are very specialist and whilst many contractors will say they can do it, they will generally contract it out anyway. Conversely most basement companies are not that imaginative or efficient at bigger general construction work like lofts or side returns. We used Estbury for the dig and they were excellent, on time and bang on the money but I probably wouldn't use them for an entire house yet as they have only recently started doing their own fit-outs. There are a couple of exceptions to this, namely Mascot and Minale & Mann, but whilst their finish is generally exceptional (we love selling their houses!!) they are by no means cheap. If money is no object I know where I would go.

If you would like any more advice do feel free to drop me a line or pop into the office.

Jonathan

Area Sales Director
Hamptons International
98 - 100 Northcote Road
020 7924 2170
dysonj@hamptons-int.com

[pie81]

Thanks Jonathan, very helpful. Any tips on how to go about finding a good project manager...?

I'd heard of Minale & Mann (though they seem to do quite a particular style which I'm not sure is for us) but not Mascot, I will look into them thank you. Finish is important but budget is definitely a consideration too sadly!

[Balance]

Hi Pie
I did a basement conversion a few years back and would progress it first and foremost with getting an architect on board to draw up the plans and specifications and an interior designer if your architect doesn't have one in office to ensure you are getting the maximum out of your layout and that electrical/lighting layouts are where you want/need them. Depending on your experience level, I would then get a project manager on board to help you with the process of getting quotes in from build companies to ensure they are all quoting like for like and that nothing has been missed. My preference is for using companies that can handle all aspects of the build in house so you do not lose time/project continuity with trades appearing late on site. I have not used them myself but Simplylofts also do returns and basements and have some great reviews. I spoke to one of their directors, Helen, recently and they sound like a switched on bunch. You may choose to get specialist help in for the kitchen/tech/bespoke furniture side, in which case I'd talk that through with the architect/interior designer so that can be built in to the specification and your project manager knows this is in your game plan.
Hope that helps but please give me a buzz if you want to talk anything through.
Vicki
Balance Design Ltd 07961 068243

[sw11_]

We've done houses up with both Minale and Mann and the other end of the spectrum - cheap builder with separate architect and project manager. Happy to grab a coffee if you want to x

[pie81]

Thanks Vicki - I hadn't realised that interior designers do lighting/electrical layout (had thought I'd need a separate specialist for that).

Yes, I agree having the project manager on board at the quote stage sounds good. Any tips on finding a good independent project manager...? Perhaps the architect would be able to recommend some?

sw11 what a kind offer. I will take you up on that! Will PM you.

[Joe's Mum]

Can I also suggest that you think about how the new basement and kitchen extension will relate to the garden (assuming that you have one)?
It's best to get a garden designer on board once you have engaged the architect rather than leaving it until the work on the house has been completed. That way the architects and the garden designer can work together on the interface between house and garden.

If the basement level will be opening on to the garden you don't want the main view from your lovely new basement to be of a bland retaining wall and a flight of steps. A well planned connection between house and garden will mean that you have nicer views from inside the house and that you use the garden more as a result.

[pie81]

Thanks for the further replies!

1roof, I know the big building companies will have their own project manager and if if the world was perfect I would obviously just use theirs I guess however I am thinking about the situation where the project is not going very well, perhaps the builders are not turning up when they should or mistakes seem to be being made or not planned well - I presume that an independent project manager would help in those scenarios (well hopefully they would prevent this happening in the first place)? Or perhaps this is just overkill and likely to wind the builder up?? I guess it's not necessary if the builder's own PM is good enough but... how do you know?

Joe's mum, absolutely, the garden is part of the plan too, any landscaping will definitely have to be done at the time of the structural work.

[mangustheix]

First, full disclosure, I am an independent lighting designer, so bear that in mind when I make comments about lighting.

Having seen many building projects I would suggest an independent project manager. If you are employing them directly and they are not employed by the contractor then you know you have someone who is not going to be biased against you. They can be impartial in the advice they give you. An architect can fulfil this roll but it might be that you want someone who has a bit more practical on site experience and dealing with contractors (this does depend on the architects though). You need someone who knows how everything is meant to be finished and to what standard because what you find acceptable might not be the standard the contractor or sub contractors work to. They will also take the time to make sure you understand what is going on and what choices need to eb make. They should also be able to help you make decisions when compromises need to be made, and make you understand that making certain choices are going to delay you so, again, you can make an informed choice.

Now for lighting advice. My biggest tip is make sure you see light fittings before they are purchased. You will be having LEDs in the property and these vary wildly in colour (warm to cold whites, with poor quality ones having shades of green or pink in them), glare, light output and ability to dim. This will affect the whole atmosphere of the room so it is important to check since you will be spending a lot on them and it is quite difficult to change once they are there. My basic guideline is this

2700K - 3000K for colour temperature (try to get 2700K, it is the same colour as incandescent lamps and will give you a more warm, cosy feeling)

Check they are mains/phase dimmable and compatible with the dimmers the contractor is supplying. Ideally you want to see it working first since some only dim down to 30%.

DO NOT use Wattage as a comparison, this is a measure of power consumed, not light output. You need to get the lumen value and compare these between different products. For normal screw in lamps you want something with a 600lm output. For downlights in the ceiling you will want 600-700lm per fitting.

Obviously I am biased but I do find that this information is not generally available and it can make a world of difference.

[walesdavies]

Hi,
I wanted to second the Mascot recommendation and recommend a company like Qualitas who are basement specialists AND house refurb / extension specialists. I have used Qualitas in the past (they did our basement when they were Pure Basement) and they had a 'foreman' who liaised heavily with the architect and project managed it. I didn't ever feel the need that we should have had a separate PM (but I was around & onsite every day!).

Mascot did a quote for us when we were considering extensions & refurb and their quote included the PM side. They are both on the 'pricier' side but I also got a quote from Avian and when I broke it down I think it wouldn't have been far off in the end as I would have needed to get a PM, interior designer & there was no break down for other costs such as ironmongery, only white sockets & switches, the bare minimum & I got the feeling that the quality wouldn't be that good. Mascot (& Qualitas) broke their quote down so comprehensively that I could see how much various elements were costing.

I would also recommend having a chat to the Good London Builders: http://www.goodlondonbuilders.com as they are PMs first & foremost but have all the contacts for the relevant tradespeople. We were really impressed with them & they have done a lot of work BTC.

In the end we didn't go ahead with our building work but if we do in the future, I would be using one of those 3 companies.

[pie81]

Thanks very much for the further advice!

Hmm still lots of different views about independent PM or not. Perhaps it depends on what building company we use and how good they seem to be at the PM side (though I suspect you only find that out mid build!)

Very interesting about LEDs - I have been unimpressed with LEDs I've seen in friends' houses but know that things have improved in recent years and also they may not have chosen so carefully! Thanks for the advice.

[Ensoul.co.uk]

Hi Pie81, I know you don't want self recommendations, however, I thought the article we wrote on Project Management may be of interest http://www.ensoul.co.uk/blog/posts/prof ... ationship/ Hope it all goes well, best regards, Mike

[mangustheix]

Thanks very much for the further advice!

Hmm still lots of different views about independent PM or not. Perhaps it depends on what building company we use and how good they seem to be at the PM side (though I suspect you only find that out mid build!)

Very interesting about LEDs - I have been unimpressed with LEDs I've seen in friends' houses but know that things have improved in recent years and also they may not have chosen so carefully! Thanks for the advice.

You are quite right, it is normally the middle of the project you suddenly realise you should have done something different or organised it another way. It is very fustrating, but try not to stress too much, pretty much everyone does the same thing on their first couple of big build projects.


With LEDs, they have only really become viable in about the last 3-4 years, and even then you were paying a premium. It is one of those niche things about lighting designers in that we all love low voltage halogen and the quality of light it gives. I have only felt satisfied doing LEDs in the last 2-3 years really, and there is still a lot of terrible LED lights out there. For a good quality downlight which is not excessive in price (so not a designer fitting or anything) you would look to spend £40-50 each. Glare is the other issue. Everyone knows what it is like to walk into a new extension and be blinded by all the rows of spotlights in there. Getting a fitting with an anti glare baffle just changes that entirely (not that there should be rows of spots in the first place, but that is a whole other conversation). Also, I am talking about downlights, but this is relevant to any lights you will use. And you will need LEDs since for building regs you need to have 75% of the fittings been low energy.

[Scottishdad]

Pie81

We're about to complete on a fairly large renovation comprising a rear extension, loft conversion and full refurb throughout the property including moving partition walls. We had an independent architect, and have employed our own project manager (Andy from a local firm called Runprojects) who ran the tender for a general building contractor, and has overseen the build. our PM has been invaluable in keeping the day to day hassle to a minimum and heading off potential issues in the tender and contracting process. I know where we are on timing and cost, and what decisions we need to make, but I don't have to check in on the site just to make sure things are running smoothly. For us it has been the right balance of being involved and in control, but without being swamped with questions and constantly having to check up.

My view is this; if you have an independent PM that you employ, they are going to act in your best interests at all times. Can you be sure that's the case with the project manager assigned by your builder? And if the worst happens and things go wrong, you will have someone there to deal with it as a professional. I've seen friends who have been so emotionally invested in their projects that when things have gone wrong it led to a complete breakdown in the relationship between them and their builders.

In terms of architects vs project managers, just bear in mind it is a totally different skill set to manage cost, time and detailed contracts and scope, compared to designing something unique and special. Also, I am fairly certain our PM has saved us at least 50% of his fee just by negotiating deals direct with suppliers on our behalf, so it is worth bearing this in mind too.

If you've got any questions then do feel free to message me.

[pie81]

Thanks for the further replies. I think I am convinced about an independent PM... The only remaining question in my mind is, if you use a building firm that has its own PM, does it annoy them if you use an independent PM (guess you might say if it does then don't use those builders...) and does it mean you are doubling up on PMs and PM cost?