Buying a house that is a MAJOR renovation project - Advice please! Post Reply

[IndyB]

We are buying a house that is going to be a MAJOR renovation project - and have never done a project like this before - and not sure where to start!

We want to complete a side return/kitchen extension, and add a new bathroom and utility room to the ground floor.

We'll also need structural work on the first floor, including a new bathroom.

Eventually we'll look to do a loft extension, but may not complete that immediately.

I'm looking for recommendations for good architects, builders and project managers for a start...

And if you have completed a major renovation project, what lessons did you learn from it?

Any advice of what to do (or not to do!) would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you so much!

[tooposhtopush]

Congratulations - it's going to be stressful but fun!

I think the first thing I would say is to accept it's going to be hard work and all consuming and embrace that - it's less stressful that way.

My main piece of advice?

Good builders are hard to find but they are out there. The main thing, I think, to realise, is that almost everyone has problems with building firms. I have friends who have the most amazing extensions and you'll hear them whinge over the baked camabert "oh are builders were rubbish we went three weeks over..." and it turns out that they came in on budget but found a few issues that delayed them by a few months. If you can find builders who...

1. you get on with
2. can show you lots of previous builds you like the look of
3. are all the right insurance

then you are in the right ball park.

then make sure you get the right payment schedule and contract so you haven't paid a shed load of money up front. That should put you in the driving seat and remove most problems.

Will type more later but hope this helps

Good luck

[Good London Builders]

Hi IndyB

I think it depends how bespoke you want to be. There are pros and cons to all routes, but let me summarize:

1. Bring several independent parties to the table yourself. So employ an architect, structural engineer, party wall surveyor, building regs and CDM company for the pre build phase and then employ a build team / project manager. Given your self confessed lack of experience, this may be unwise, but it is an option.

2. Go with an "all in" design and build team. There are some excellent operations in the area. Costs can vary significantly and as with everything you get what you pay for. The great thing about this option is you have everything under one roof and ultimately they are responsible for the whole project so there is no cop out from them. Issues can be that you don't know the quality of the professional services they are bringing in as they will be in house so while you may think you are getting a very experienced architect, it may only be a very junior cad designer. I guess this shouldn't be an issue if you like the designs, but there is so much more to a plan than just how it looks, it also needs to work! As I say though, most operations out there are very proficient. As a previous poster has mentioned the best way to make sure they will deliver is to speak to previous clients and go and see work they have done. On insurance this is vital also, in the unlikely event something does go wrong. The builder will probably show you insurance docs (if not you must ask for them) but then it is difficult for you to know if the cover is sufficient. If you want to pm me I can put you in touch with a construction insurance consultant who can advise you - I use him a lot.

3. Work with an architect to take you through the whole process. If you want a very design led approach this may be the way forward for you. Architects vary in price dramatically and once again you get what you pay for. Once you have appointed one you are pretty much committed to them and there is nothing wrong with that, but one thing you should be aware of is that they actually own the designs they come up with, even if you have paid for them. So if you change architect during the process, you will have to come to an arrangement for the next architect to take on the same drawings. That said this is very much the traditional approach to building works. Architects will advise on all areas and will bring in all required professionals and even build teams (either their recommendations or your own). As I say this is very much the traditional route and a tried and tested one, but may not be for everyone.

4. Marketing "front" companies. You will know these as some loft / extension companies. There are lots around and again they are 'horses for courses'. They deliver pretty well on the whole, there are always exceptions, but while you think you are employing them directly, if you look at the contracts you are actually paying them to put in a subcontractor who is responsible for the work. They take their payment from you but don't actually have responsibility for the work. If the budget is tight, they tend to be the option people go for, but just beware who is responsible for any problems.

5. This is where I have to confess a vested interest. I hope you think what I have written above is a help and I am not going to sell our business. We offer something different to the above but rather than push, I'd invite you to have a look at our website - http://www.goodlondonbuilders.com.

All the options above are valid, it really depends on what you want and how you want to approach it.

If you would like more advice I'd be happy to answer any questions and I promise to stay as impartial!

Cheers

Rory
MD Good London Builders

[andy@RP]

Hi IndyB,

That sounds like an exciting project!

It may sound simple, but the key to a successful project is spending the right amount of time up front and planning it correctly. This includes finding the right people to work with for your project (whether an architect, through a Project Management company, or a Design & Build company), as there are many ways to deliver a successful project.

If you can get to the point where you have an accurate specification of what works you want to do, then the builders can price it accurately which will reduce the risks of changes during construction. It also means they can give an accurate assessment of the project duration, reducing the chance of project overruns. It is also worth thinking through the potential risks associated with your project and what the associated costs could be so that you are prepared just in case.

From a budget perspective, it is important to consider fees that you will need to pay, and also VAT on the builder's costs. These can often get overlooked when budgeting for a project.

There was a previous post on here that may also be of use to you:

http://www.nappyvalleynet.com/mums/view ... 81#p179443

Good luck and get in touch if you would like any advice.

Andy

Andy McCarthy / MSc MRICS
RUN PROJECTS
andy@runprojects.co.uk / 07980 544 809
www.runprojects.co.uk

[actuallyadad]

my advice is don't do it.

It's NOTHING like watching Grand Designs.

We did it - took way, way longer than planned. Cost way, way more than planned. Basically all builders are annoying, almost every one we dealt with messed us around one way or another. Invariably they go bust, disappear, start a new job, oh that's going to cost a bit more because of [weather/christmas/a problem I found etc etc] Same for all surveyors, architects, interior designers, electricians, plumbers, alarm installers, painters, garden designers they all end up annoying you... and I haven't even mentioned the neighbours who we now hate and who hate us after a year of skips and drilling.

I'd never do it again. It's a massive disruption to life and takes up all your free time as you're constantly badgering people, buying door knobs or choosing paint. It's just not that fun.

And with the market looking slower than it was you're not guaranteed to make money these days either.

Just buy one that's already done and replace the bits you don't like/repaint it. With the planning restrictions in the area the chances are you are going to do the same as everybody else anyway so might as well buy one somebody else sweated over!

[tooposhtopush]

my advice is don't do it.

Love the honesty.

I think that may be what I was hinting at before, not so much don't do it, because I have done it myself and had lots of friends who've done well, but because it's really really hard work.

If I had my time again I'd employ people do it for me and then drop in and oversee but it is stressful.

(still giggling at AAD's comment)

[Hamptons_EandS]

I love the replies above especially actuallyadad. Having done three projects myself I have a little experience. The first was a small one which I did a lot of myself and just got a builder in to do a few bits and pieces, so not really relevant. The second was a much bigger project where we pretty much knocked out everything internally, took out chimney breasts and walls and then rebuilt. We went for the cash in hand, cheapest eastern Europeans and that was a massive mistake. We ended up kicking them off the site about 3 months after they should have finished and got other builders in to finish off (requiring another 6 weeks of work). The most recent was a loft extension and total refurbishment of the existing floor including moving walls, raising floors etc. For that we went with a recommendation from a friend but price checked him against two other builders who I know and have good reputations. I have a friend who is a quantity surveyor and project manager and for single dwelling jobs I am not sure they are worth their fee. I think having a project manager (either the architect or an independent) depends on how much time you have to oversee the project yourself. With all the information available online these days it is quite easy to price check things, you can see how many guys are on site each day, etc. I agree with actuallyadad that they always find ways to add on to the bill, my last builder (who I am happy with) charged extra because the older plaster was in worse condition than he estimated. I mean surely they all know these are Victorian properties and the plaster is likely to be blown. I would ask for a worst case scenario quote and work off that. I can highly recommend Galvin Projects (they have quoted for me and I should have used them, they have done lots of work for people who I have sold houses for and to and everyone has been thrilled) If you want to price check them then both Daniel Berry (our last builder) from Berry Construction and also Element construction (a new Zealand company who used to work out of one of my offices) are also very good. The three of them all came in with very similar quotes and it was hard to choose between them. A very demanding friend of mine has just used Element for her full refurb in Fulham and she was very happy with them. All three of those companies would not require you to have an independent project manager.

Yours
James Weston
Hamptons Earlsfield and Southfields

[IndyB]

Thank you so much for your helpful (and honest!) replies!

[LP73]

Hi Indy
We've just done a huge renovation. We took down every wall in a house, except one which had to stay. We added a basement and a loft and the project ran very smoothly and we were very lucky to have some fantastic, switched on builders who finished our build two days ahead of schedule.
I'm more than happy to offer advice on how we did it, who to use (and not to use) if you drop me a DM.
The main thing is to do your research, reference anyone that you are thinking of using, have legal contracts drawn up (it's so worth it) and go and visit properties that the builders have done.
We had a shirt list of six builders with costs. The costs ranged by thousands and I mean thousands. We didn't go with the cheapest (after seeing their standard of work) and didn't go with the most expensive as they were going to take 18 months (our project was done in seven months).
Yes there can be issues but a good builder will discuss this with you and work through them.
Our costs only increased when we decided to change items along the way. A good builder will use a QS to give you a realistic idea of costs. We had around 12 spreadsheets of costs before the project started. Our builders updated us every week on progress and also costs via emails and spreadsheets.
We only visited the site once a week and we were lucky they ran the whole thing - at no extra cost!!!
Best of luck and whilst it can be stressful at times it is so worth the end result.

[LP73]

PS I should have said that we used an architect and a different firm to do the build. The architects suggested firms were all buys for months and then their costs were far greater not to mention the fact the architect was adding on 15% just to 'manage' the project.
A decent builder will do this. We also made some changes along the way that were very practical, ones you would like to think the architect would have suggested but didn't. Don't get me wrong our architect was good but it's often the builders who have hand on experience that come up with the best suggestions.

[sw18er]

For people who've used a design and build firm for a complex project, how did you go about keeping the tender process competitive when presumably at the stage of appointment you only have an outline plan of the work involved.

[Ensoul.co.uk]

Hi IndyB, this sounds like a fabulous opportunity to create an amazing home for your family, all the ones we have done for clients and ourselves have truly transformed the way people live their lives in their homes.

The problem in my experience is not how to get advice, but how to make sense of all the differing advice you will get. All the comments in this thread are good starting points, but ultimately, you will have to sit down as a family and decide on three basic things at this early stage of you project:

1) Have we got a clear view of how we are going to use the space (which will drive the space planning phase) when it is renovated and will this meet our needs for the next 5 years+. This sounds simple on the face of it but as you start to commit this to paper, you will find this helps refine the scope of works required and also prioritise where you are going to focus your budget

2) How involved in the process do we want to be, how much experience do we have of this kind of project and how much time do we have to commit to actively engaging during the process. This is a critical part of the thinking that will dictate what kind of approach you are going to take to the project, all of which have been outlined previously

3) Do you have a firm view of your cash budget for the whole project (incl VAT, builder costs, contingency, design services, other professionals, new furniture required, etc). This should then be compared with the price per square foot of comparable houses (post renovation) to give you a sense of value from doing the works. This is not a black and white deciding factor as this is as much about creating a beautiful home as it is about maximising economic value.

I hope this is helpful, please call if you'd like to discuss in more detail as i would be delighted to share more of our experiences, best regards, Mike Lander, Director, Ensoul Interior Architecture.

[dudette]

Having done two big projects and one smaller one my advice would be:

a) Do your due diligence on both your architects and builders. Speak to as many former clients as you can and try and see their work.

b) If you can possibly avoid it don't live in the house while the work's being done. It'll be quicker and will reduce your stress levels.

c) Don't project manage it yourself. Our architects did the PMing - it's good to have someone fight your battles for you (so make sure you get a good architect).

d) I'd steer clear of design and build companies for large projects unless you get some very good recommendations. If things go wrong it's just you versus them with no one else in your side.

c) Try and keep your neighbours happy - saying sorry for the disruption goes a long way. You're going to have to live with them so do your level best not to antagonise them.

People who say don't do it have probably had a bad experience. You do hear horror stories but it doesn't have to be bad and at least you get the house the way you want it rather than paying for someone else's design and tastes.

[metoo]

I had to write in because actuallyadad made me laugh so much!
I think it's really exciting and wish you all the best.
My friend who had done it a year before us told us - buy EVERYTHING before you start, light switches, plug fittings, door handles, door locks, everything....we didn't and 6 years on we still have a bare bulb in the downstairs loo, waiting for a decent light fitting! She also told us to put the shower switch on the outside of the enclosure - brilliant! no wet arm reaching in to turn on the shower.
Put lights in your eaves/storage cupboards with switches on the outside.
Factor in storage.
We moved out - a good cost to factor into your budget.
Another person advised us to buy 'standard size' windows -like off the peg rather than bespoke. We didn't and do regret it. We've got all sorts of odd sized windows which will be a bugger to replace if we need to.
Remember - you can never fully future-proof your house.

We've never regretted it, the house suits us and our needs perfectly. My friend is an architect with 3 primary aged children so was very practical when it came to what we'd need. If you'd like her details, website etc I'll send them.

[mumbelievable]

actuallyadad - you are so spot on!

Project management is perhaps a thing for anyone who has literally no time, too much cash and maybe no experience. If you look at what these project management people charge (and remember they may quote their fees ex VAT), it can add around 15% to your costs. Thats a hec of alot of cash

Utilise your annual leave and saturday mornings to be on site, most people can then project manage.

The best person you can align yourself with is a great architect - they will design you a great home and introduce you to the builders.

Chris Medland at One World Design we used and was very good.