How big is the academic gap between Honeywell and Newton Prep? Post Reply

[Mimita]

Interestingly vlm79, I was a secondary school teacher before my children were born and I did differentiate teaching. At secondary level, it is expected and Ofsted looks for evidence of that including checking teachers' planners. At least they did when I taught.
State schools have many problems that we don't like to admit or try to tackle. It seems taboo to talk about them. If our state system is so fabulous, why are so many of our children leaving without qualifications? And it has nothing to do with money. One of the things I found as a teacher was that many teachers had no idea about the Teachers' Standards. Have you ever seen them posted in your child's school? Many heads don't even know them. The first thing on the standards is "A teacher must set high expectations which inspire, challenge and motivate pupils." Now I challenge you to bring me examples of schools where you can say this is the case for all pupils. When I send my child to school, I expect ALL teachers to adhere to the Teachers' Standards. Sadly, not many do even in the independent sector.

[NoodleFan]

Very well said livegreen. It’s tricky for them to make friends so consistency is hugely important. Make a decision and stick to it. Some years are better than others for all kids so best not to make rash decisions based on one teacher / one bad experience.

[Elenita4ever]

Hi,

I think that if you really want to understand the difference between state and private for Primary you have to go back to the first response posted by ColdatChristmas - as they basically nailed it.
It all comes down to what you want to achieve longer term. The Prep schools are called “Prep” for a reason - they prepare children for Independent private secondary schools. I know very few people - actually, make that no people- that deliberately plan to send their children to Prep primary with a view to then swapping to state system for secondary.
Yes of course, the classes are smaller and more “streamed” by ability in Prep schools because the ultimate goal is to get the child into the best Private secondary for them - and that’s a tough gig as they are highly competitive so you need that single-minded focus. But that doesn’t mean that State schools will not allow your child to reach their full potential - it’s just how they reach that potential and the ultimate goal for Secondary school is different.
If your child is highly-academic, driven to excel and you can afford it then your ultimate goal is most likely to going to err towards a private education. If not, then your child is just as likely to flourish in state school(s) and reach their full potential in the long run.
It sounds to me, from reading your responses to the responses - that the Prep/Private route is likely to suit you/your child best.
All the best.

[Mimita]

Elenita, there are no schools in the UK now that are not focused on exam prep. Our obsession with league tables and destinations means that every school now teaches to some sort of syllabus which is usually pegged to one exam or the other. Prep schools are probably worse in this case as they have to get their paying clientele into these great schools that they boast about.
If I were in your shoes and I was going to pay anyway and if he hasn't missed the boat for the earlier admissions tests, I would leave him where he is currently and see if he is ready to do the 7+, 8+ or 9+ and get him into one of those schools. My assumption id if you can get to Newton Prep you can get to either Dulwich or Westminster. Then you don't have to really worry about another exam for about 10 years or so. But then the question would be would he thrive in a single sex school.

[Forgetmenot]

Having had kids at both Honeywell and private schools I can say there is definitely a difference. Honeywell is a great school but if you want your child to go to a private secondary school, then private schools are more likely to prepare them. Honeywell parents may start tutoring their kids from year 4 onwards to help them get into a private secondary school as competition for places are high. So they are doing homework for both school and tutors! The classes in state are 30 pupils where as private are 20 or less. If your child is naturally bright then they are more likely to get into a private secondary from state. But if they are not as bright then they would fair better in a smaller class. If your child has any learning issues, state don’t have the provisions for learning support in the same way as private schools do. Obviously private is costly but personally I think it is worth it for smaller classes, better preparation and back up for any learning issues.

[Scottov]

The raison d'etre of independent prep schools was always to prepare pupils to sit the Common Entrance test for admission to independent secondary schools.

which is being phased out now anyway, and many of the best schools no longer even use it

[BFW]

If I could do it all over again and had I had the amazing option of Honeywell... I  would 200% chose Honeywell !    I have children at 3 different excellent private secondary schools and honestly I think they would have all ended up in the same secondary schools had they gone to one of the amazing state schools in Wandsworth.  Everyone at the local privates (and I mean everyone even if they tell you they don't) tutors for 11+ / 13+ !   Now that I have older children it makes me realise how crazy the whole process is.  If you have a bright child - he / she will do well regardless of the school.

And I really do not get this wish for our children to be working two years ahead and being "bored" because they are not.  Most secondary schools will have a Year 7 curriculum designed for everyone to start on the same basis in Year 8 (some kids needing to catch up on Languages and maths for examples) Sure some kids cruise through Year 7 because of it - but its not a bad thing.

Let kids be kids - as one of the previous posters quite rightly said they have so much pressure with GSCE and A Levels as it is !

 

[IoanaB]

Thank you all so much for all for taking the time to share your views. I just want to clarify where I come from at this decision.
We recently moved to London from the US. My son attended a very good private school in the US until now. In the US private schools do not follow the national curriculum ( I have never heard of it so I wouldn’t even know what the US equivalent would be). Private schools in the US follow their own different paths and innovate with pretty much anything all the time. In some schools kids may works many years ahead of a public school (although there are amazing public schools for gifted children too). Generally they let every child work at their maximum potential, whatever that may be.
My son was miserable in both of the state schools we tried in London. We changed schools not because I couldn’t decide what to pick but because I wanted to give state schools a good chance and thought the second one would be better.
However, the head teachers in both schools refused to allow my child to work with upper year materials or assign him different work. Every time he would ask for something different in school he was told that this is not for his year level and that he should not be working on that. It got to the point where he would invent his own math problems in class so as to not get bored.
So I have no doubt that the two “good” schools are not a good fit for us and I have seen no such attempt, as mentioned by some, of differentiating by ability or accommodating kids who can and want to work at a higher level. In fact I feel I was ridiculed in both state schools for suggesting that my son can and should work above the year level. Also in one of the two schools there were only 17 children in his class, a head teacher and an assistant so they definitely had the resources to stretch children but I was told that this is simply not necessary since my son would need to catch up to his age group at some point anyway.
The only question for me is whether an “outstanding” school can be that much better than the “good” schools we tried and whether a good private school like Newton Prep can be that much better. In the US I could be absolutely sure that they would let my son do absolutely anything he can and wants to do, but because independent schools in London still follow the national curriculum, I am not as convinced that a good independent school makes as much of a difference.
A big point of clarification is that I am not choosing an independent school so he can get into a good independent secondary or into Oxbridge. I am convinced that if he is good enough he can get there from anywhere. I do not care about where he will end up in secondary or university and I am not even sure if we will still be in London at that point. I care about how he spends his time in school now and on a daily basis. I want him to feel like he can do anything he wants and stretch himself as far as he wants. I do not want anyone to tell him that something is just not for his age group or not in the year’s curriculum. And I want him to stop being miserable and demotivated.

[dudette]

I think you should choose Newton Prep. Honeywell is a great school but in terms of variety of the curriculum, going on outings and school trips, sports facilities, after school clubs etc state schools can’t compete with independents. I just think he is less likely to be bored there as there will be so much going on. Have a look at the school’s Twitter feed to see what the kids get up to. Also talk to the schools about your son working ahead of the curriculum and see what they say. You’re more likely to get an honest answer from the school than from here where everyone is coming from their own biased standpoint!

[atbattersea]

I think what you need to know is that your child will be learning at the level required for their progression. If Honeywell can do that, then great. But the thing to do is contact the schools and ask both how they would deal with your child. If you are not happy with the answers, or can't get an answer, then go somewhere else.

It doesn't appear that you are so concerned with progression to secondary school, but if that is an issue, you should perhaps see where the children from each school are going - since there are obviously independent secondaries that are more selective than others.

For those indicating that Newton is solely geared towards exams and passing the 11+ I think you are wide of the mark. While the school does have regular exams to establish progression, that's not really the focus - it is definately a wider experience than continuous exam practise. As an example, Newton has abandonned the narrow curriculum for the common entrance exam.

[atbattersea]

I do not want anyone to tell him that something is just not for his age group or not in the year’s curriculum. And I want him to stop being miserable and demotivated.

This is probably always going to be a problem in a state school, particularly if it is a small school or is not streaming. I had exactly this problem with my child - reading probably three years ahead of his age group and having the opportunity to do maths with a year ahead of his classmates (at school, but not because they wanted to move him up, just because it was "convenient" for other reasons).

You will come across a great deal of resistance to being ahead, which at your son's age isn't that difficult, it just takes a bit of interest from the parents. At worst, treat school as a social function, stretch him at home.

[Starr]

I hope you decide between the 2 schools. A nice choice to have.
I moved my daughter to a prep last year for similar reasons and she lacked confidence among her class while being very able and hardworking. The fldifference in Maths was bigger than for English but child has caught up after 2 terms. I was also mindful of secondary schools options and now I dont feel the need for finding tutors . Also Art, Music and Science lessons, sports fixtures and Orchestra also enhance her learning. I don't regret my choice at all. She is flourishing and challenged and has made firm friends and confidence has grown massively - while staying in touch with some friends fron her old school.
I did get some negativity for moving her but I've learned to ignore. We all know our child best and what they are capable of.
Visit both schools and ask these questions. I have a feeling as an ex pat, you will enjoy the international demographic of Newton Prep. Ask some current Honeywell parents too how they feel. It is an Outstanding school but probably will feel so more of you've been there from the start.
Best of luck

[themotherofdragons]

My son was at Honeywell and got into a top indy school. He wasn't top of his class, just comfortably in the middle
Yes, we tutored from year 5 but only one hour a week with quite a lot of additional work and working with practice papers at home. From my experience, Honeywell is a gorgeous school with amazing teachers. As someone else said earlier, I believe primary school should be about enjoying childhood and not just academic excellence and competition. So it's good that not all kids are alpha kids and they don't have to feel pressured and compete at the age of 7 or 8. I think Honeywell balances academics, teaching values and nurturing environment perfectly. Every school has problems and I'm sure there are people who are not happy at H and there are things that go wrong. However, overall, it's a very happy and very well behaved school. When we went to my son's new school for the new parents meeting and got talking to the headmaster, he said "we love Honeywell children because they tend to be very well balanced and very well behaved." If you look at the data from last year, almost 50% of kids from H went private, including schools such as St Paul's or Kings. Finally, because of the catchment and house prices, most children and H are well off - but not all. I love the fact that my son had friends who had less and the fact that he now has so many friends in state schools. I think it's quite grounding. And, by the way, to answer someone else's concern about lack of early streaming - my youngest child is currently in Y1 and the teacher told me they will start streaming later this year. Hope this helps!

[chorister]

Have a read of Robert Plomin's Blueprint and you will find that it probably doesn't matter either way in terms of your child's overall life.  The avalanche of genetic research in the last 20 years means that the nature / nurture argument is now more or less over - across a population (you can't reduce it to an individual) genetics accounts for about 50% of personality traits, the so-called unshared environment ie stuff that happens to you about 35% and the shared environment (schooling, parenting) 15%.

It is an extraordinary fact - backed by repeated research - that by their mid 20s identical twins separated at birth and not knowing of the other's existence will have TV viewing habits that correlate more closely than non twin siblings raised together, because cognitive preferences are very heritable.  And there are many other examples too.

So choose the school where your children will be happiest.

[Offspring]

Just like to bust some assumptions made on here.

Firstly, it is completely untrue that all private school children are tutored. At the very least, I can say that mine have not been tutored at all for the 11 plus.

Secondly, it is completely untrue that private schools only teach to pass the exams at 11/13.  The curriculum is extremely broad and engaging and, of course, they are not required to take SATS which gives the school more freedom to teach.

Children should be allowed to be children and I think the most important point is that if you intend to go private from 11/13, then being in state school will mean the child has to not only follow the national curriculum but also face extra work outside of what they are being taught at school (often with a tutor) in order to take the private school exams.  That is fine but it does mean that sending a child to state does not mean they will have an 'idyllic' time at primary school (as suggested on this thread) compared to private school children if the intention is for them to move to private.