Catholic school being unchristian Post Reply

[Christianvalues_not!]

As a non-religious person I do sometimes feel that some christians can be a bit, well, unchristian.

I've often found their attitudes to schooling distinctly unfriendly and about as selfish and self-centred as you can get. After all if you've got a great school then surely it would be christian to share some of that (not all of it, but a few places) with children from less fortunate backgrounds? If you have the keys to the kingdom of heaven, then taking a few primary places from your flock probably isn't too big an ask.

Anyway its never really bothered me until today. I heard on the news that two primary school children have been expelled from a school that they have already started because their parents lied about them being baptised.



Expelled!

Fantastic! Every thought I had about catholic faith schools being a bit smug, selfish and probably unchristian have just been confirmed in one fell swoop. Lets punish the kids for something their parents did wrong! They didn't have their places withdrawn, they were EXPELLED! Don't get me wrong I think the parents were bang out of order and should be punished but the kids? It beggars belief!

Was there a walk of shame? Did they wear hair shirts and were dragged out?

Surely it would be christian to let them stay? What about forgiveness? Ahhh but we're only christians in church and not in the real world. That would be too much like, well, being kind and forgiving!

Full story here...sorry for going on but it just seems so wrong...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... chool.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would love to know how any nappyvalley christians feel about this? I don't want a great big argument, I just want to hear if anyone else feels this is wrong?

[juliantenniscoach]

just a tricky subject in which the children are certainly punished for "the sins of their fathers" if I can put it that way. but there is another side to it; imagine you were parents of that particular faith whose children didn't get in because the school was full? imagine you had subcribed fully to the rules and followed that faith?
the parents concerned surely knew the rules hence the extreme measures they took? it shouldn't be overlooked in that what they did is very close to a criminal offence of "percunery advantage". I don't think the school had a choice really (given their rules) but they could have waited til the end of the academic year instead of making 'pariahs' of the children who were the innocent party. either way it's a pretty sad story.

[Erykah]

As a Christian I think its sad that you've had experiences of Church goers practicing Christian values in inside church but not in the world - because thats not what Jesus taught and its certainly not the way I want to live! so please accept my apologies if you've been on the receiving end of unforgiveness or judgement

I think there are several separate issues here - one being that faith schools do have a great reputation and its said that there aren't more places for everyone to benefit, but sadder still that our people feel concerned about the quality of education their children will receive from our state schools that they might have to lie about faith in order to guarentee an affordable good education. Having had a great experience of state ed in both a Church of England and non faith school, I feel sad that our children today in London are so limited by the choice of good state schools.

I hope the decision of the school was based around working out what was best for all concerned - both for this family and other families who genuinely want their children to have a education that includes a real understanding of the Christian faith. But I agree its tough for the kids when parents mess up, and not their fault!

[penni coe]

I cannot believe how angry and disappointed this message made me...first the Catholic school should be very grateful that parents would seek to have their children educated in a catholic school because they considered it to be a good school with faith principles and be welcomed into the catholic faith etc etc. How incredibly unchristian to expel these children AFTER they have joined!...the head teacher and board should ALL be publicly named and shamed -who do they think they are??...as a christian myself I can 100% confirm they have acted against the very belief they 'claim' to uphold - elitist and snobby...probably horrendous bores as well! For the poor kids and parents I hope you have found another good school and your children are well educated and not to traumatised by the whole experience.
.

[MGMidget]

Is the situation much different to, say, parents lying about their address to secure a place within the catchment area of a good school? I suspect, if found out, the children would be kicked out of a school in those circumstances too. The parents were unchristian for lying in the first place, and frankly what sort of example were they setting for their children by passing them off as something they weren't (and presumably expecting them to continue that lie at school). Whilst it is sad for the children that this has happened to them (not just the explusion but also their parents giving them a confusing upbringing), forgiveness or a 'blind eye' to the situation would have left the school open to increased incidences of fraud in the future. I'm sure the christian parents who send their kids there want their children to mix with like-minded children from like-minded families, not children who are being encouraged by their parents to lie. And surely the children would be better off not having to live a lie in a school each day by listening to religious views which their parents thought so unimportant they didn't bother to get them baptised?

[Christianvalues_not!]

Point taken, MGMidget.

I am not trying to claim that the situation is not serious, or wrong or distressing and to be honest I didn't really think about the children lying, I assumed it all happened without their knowledge.

I suppose I am a non-Christian who every now and then would like to be proved wrong, it would be lovely to believe that Christians on the whole really are kind and forgiving and practice what they preach. Then I read something like that and think cor blimey I don't think I'm *mean* enough to believe in God.

I'd assumed that the school would forgive everyone, tighted up the proceedures moving forward and not punish the kids for something they didn't do!

But I do accept that it is not a simple situation! I think thats why I don't believe, I'd always thought it was all about kindness and forgiveness but its the times when you don't do that would stress me out.

Either way the whole issue is very sad...

[metoo]

I was so fascinated by this whole topic (I think it might even have been mentioned on last night's Newsnight!) that I read the article. I can't bear the Daily Mail but I was amazed to read the father is a deputy head of a school; also, contrary to early in this thread, the children left at the end of last summer term - not mid term. 'should've known better' definitely springs to mind.
My son didn't get into my chosen faith school, despite being christened in 1 of the 4 churches you had to attend for a place....despite us being regular church goers....despite us having a bone fide reference from our vicar. The reason being the school had also brought in catchment area as criteria. Another mum got a solicitor and fought for a place (denied) but I didn't see the point, I wouldn't want him to go to a school that didn't want him - albeit not personal. I appreciated (not with good grace) that we fell outside their criteria which couldn't be bent. Things happen for a reason. We have a shorter journey to school and don't need to drive - that's one silver lining!!!

It is a very sorry state of affairs and as you say, really sad for the children

[juliantenniscoach]

just a point re 'christian values not'. you say you're not 'mean' enough to be christian but I think that really is missing the point. 'meaness' is not an issue here at all. it's a question of honesty and integrity - the parents showed none and the school showed both by following their rules and demonstating that to the existing parents and prospective parents that lying and cheating will not be rewarded. you may see it as 'mean' but the alternative would be in effect to reward the parents. that can't be right surely?

[Christianvalues_not!]

I suppose you're right, I just would have expected them to forgive.

I thought thats what it was all about.

[MGMidget]

You could take the view that they showed forgiveness (to the parents) by taking no further action (if indeed that was the case) other than withdrawing their children's places at the school. I don't suppose the children were made to feel the wrongdoers in these circumstances - I dare say the parents were the ones who were given a talking to or sent letters. Also, if it was the case that they finished at the end of a school term then I expect it was handled fairly discretely at the time. For all we know the children may be been shown lots of kindness and understanding by the teachers. The parents would have had a difficult task in telling their children why they wouldn't be going back to the school and seeing their friends again the next term - I wouldn't want to be that parent.

[Erykah]

you're absolutely right, Christianity is all about forgiveness.I really want to affirm that! But if we mess up we have to live with the consequences of our actions often - if you commit a crime and end up in prison does God forgive you if you're sorry? Absolutely 100%!
will you still have to serve your time? Yes - and thats being fair to those who have been wronged against. And I'd suggest that those parents who fulfilled all the criteria and didn't get in probably felt wronged against when they read this story.
As for measuring God by how perfect Christians are - thats always risky - none of us are naturally perfect! we don't always get it right but we follow the example of someone who does and we trust that as we go through life we gradually get transformed into his likeness