SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

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wasateacher
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby wasateacher » Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:17 pm

As an ex cyclist, I would have more sympathy for cyclists if I had not been hit on the head by a cyclist on a footpath and if, every day, I didn't see cyclists ignoring the 'no cycling' signs on the footpath opposite my house.

When I see so many cyclists showing scant regard for pedestrians and the law, I have little sympathy for them.
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SW11_Cycle
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby SW11_Cycle » Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:33 pm

So sorry you had a bad experience - there are a lot of bad cyclists out there.
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Dickyd
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby Dickyd » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:02 pm

I will get straight to the point. I am so ANGRY at the attitude you take together with your viewpoints. You seem to take a degree of pleasure in highlighting the fate of the Range Rover driver, appalling! If I have dashcam footage of a cyclist jumping a red light or proceeding to cross during the pedestrian light sequence, I have nowhere to report this person and yet they are breaking the law and if I did, there is no way to identify the culprit as the chance of getting a full facial shot is rather unlikely, unless of course they happen to be under my front wheels at the time.
I do not have a problem with upholding the law but this is the job of the police .......not some pious individual who thinks its their god given right to take matters into their own hands.
Finally, please enlighten me as to what rule applies to a cyclist who insists on passing a vehicle stopped at traffic lights or simply in a congested road, do they have to be a minimum of 1.5 metres away from the side of the vehicle they are passing?
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smashedavo
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby smashedavo » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:23 pm

Have to agree Dickyd there is a touch of the smug about this post BUT SW11 isn't making the rules here so I am not sure that your anger should be aimed at him / her. They are only taking advantage of a new law.
I too get fed up of cyclists when they run lights etc. but I think that if I were being objective then I would have to say that cyclists have it much worse in the car v bike daily contest.
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ronangel
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby ronangel » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:26 pm

The car Driver can insist that the person who took the photograph/video appears in court to give evidence in person which is their right,so driver or legal representative  can question them, or case will be dismissed and driver ask for expenses. Have case heard in own court area which could be 100 miles away. This should be insisted on for any penalty that has points on license every time without exception.The person taking the photograph also has to state their full name and address in open court or give to your solicitor( A lot of ladies or men would not be happy about giving details out, if you think about it not a particularly good idea for them ) this along with what maybe long trip to court  unless local with chances of not getting expenses will make any  person think more than twice about doing this if have any sense, if explained to them in advance which I don’t think has been done.Cycles should have number plates before this sort of thing is done so know who their accuser is, their right in British law!A piece of film without who took it and when even if true is not evidence without the person in court who took it and are questioned under oath to circumstances and they actually took it. Might not have been them could have been a friend! This needs to be thought about carefully by police and anyone thinking of giving film to police very carefully! Few other points of motoring law for those that might be interested!

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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby anonymous100 » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:48 pm

I agree with all the above except the cyclist’s posts. They should give full name, address, and the entire day’s video not just an edited clip. As I would like to see the e police likewise give them 3 points for jumping all the red lights (you say SOME are bad but I’ve never ever seen any cyclist stop at a red light before), and also see them fiddling with their cameras (which also gives 3 points). Also I agree, if you’re on the road, you should have a number plate unless a pedestrian. In fact, I feel so strongly about this I am going to write to the police and government, as people just dobbing each other in and spending all their free time doing this is a real breakdown of society in general and really sad. We are a community as Londoners and there doesn’t seem a place in a civilised society to spend all your free time just telling on others. The met has anonymised the government minister’s fines, yet has enough budget to run this online portal and staff it. It is crazy!
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chorister
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby chorister » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:52 pm

A lot of these regulations get introduced for perfectly sensible reasons, but then have to be amended because of unintended consequences.  This is bound to happen here, to cater for the situation of entering a long narrow road with a cycle at the other end, for two reasons:

1.  It is absolutely unreasonable to prosecute a motorist who stops to let a cycle pass because there is no empty space in which to pull - in the case of many of the roads around here it is actually impossible to see if there is a space when you enter the road; most people start out even if a car is coming the other way because usually there is so it's worth the chance, but sometimes it means a long reverse.

2.  Most of the long narrow roads are turnings off main roads eg the roads off Bolingbroke Grove.  If I am driving up one of those I always give way to a car coming off the main road because it is clearly safer to keep the main road clear and flowing.  It is simply ludicrous to suggest that potentially several cars should stack up waiting to turn off the main road while a single cyclist labours up a hill.  
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atbattersea
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby atbattersea » Mon Apr 04, 2022 4:21 pm

I write this as a cyclist, motorcyclist and driver.

It is utter ******* that a driver, or motorcyclist for that matter, cannot go within 1.5 metres of a cyclist.

You only have to think about the logic of it for a few seconds to realise that this is not what the rules on the hierarchy of road users means. For a start, it would mean that lorries and buses would always have to give way to car drivers. What are they going to do, reverse back up the road!?

The hierarchy is there to indicate, clearly, who is most exposed, and who should be most careful.

That there is a hierarchy does not mean that those at the bottom of the chain can do what they like with impunity, it just means that the burden of proof rests with those further up the hierarchy.

Everyday incidence of cyclist being with 1.5m of a car, where there is no liability for the car driver: if the car is stationary in a traffic queue and the cyclist approaches from the rear and overtakes the car (on either side), or even (not uncommon) squeezes through a narrow gap.

The same must be true if the motorist and cyclist are travelling in opposite directions (ie the car is stationary in traffic driving east and a cyclist passes riding west).

So, in the particular incidence of the long roads between the commons, the driver is only required to give way to the cyclist, not maintain the distance stated. And to be clear on that, I am saying that the driver probably has to be stationary when the cyclist passes. For example, how could the driver be liable, if they enter the road, it seems clear, and then a cyclist appears from the opposite end? Alternatively, if there is a bend in the road, or it is a long, narrow country lane?

I suspect that most people, receiving a penalty notice, will not challenge it – because it is usually more trouble that it is worth. But, that is probably the whole purpose of the scheme, to grab at the low hanging fruit and take the burden from the courts. So, evidence of accepting the penalty is not evidence of the penalty being correctly levied.

I believe that the main problem with cyclists on the road is that they are not educated as road users, or if they are (because they have motorcycle or driving licences) their use of logic goes out of the window as they are all pumped-up on the exercise induced adreniline. I have spent many years cycling from Battersea up to the West End and to London Bridge, and only once have I come close to being "doored" and only once close to being knocked off (unbelievably someone deliberately tried to run me off the road).

When on the road I find myself often cringing at what I see cyclists, scooter riders and motorcyclist do – physically put themselves in danger through lack of awareness. And, on odd occasions I see them take careful note of the road conditions, and avoid what could have been very serious accidents (while swearing under their breaths) - but the latter is much less common than the former.

I have recently objected to TfL’s proposals for “bus stop bypasses” – where cyclists are effectively diverted onto the pavement around bus stops – precisely because I have seen, over an extended period, how recklessly many of them ride. They do not know how to give way to pedestrians, and putting them in a position where they need to do so will just result in more accidents.

This poor road use by cyclists is not aided by a lack of enforcement by TfL or the police, so the situation tends to get worse, rather than better.

As to the claim that cyclist do not injure pedestrians very often. I believe that is a hollow claim, because no evidence has been put forward to support it. There have been at least two cases in London that I am aware of where cyclists have killed pedestrians. I suspect that there are many more where lesser injuries have been caused.

Perhaps the caped crusader could start collecting evidence of the indiscretions of cyclists, and urge the police to take greater enforcement action too?
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SW11_Cycle
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby SW11_Cycle » Mon Apr 04, 2022 4:53 pm

Hi
Apologies if anyone finds this smug.

Not my intention.

I was genuinely surprised how easy it was to generate a fine/points for drivers around here and I wanted to post as I honestly think most people don't understand how/why.

I've deliberately not reacted to anyone who is wishing hurt upon cyclists and am hoping to keep a calm manner as I type.

Again apologies if that is not the case.

I'll try and take questions in order:

1. "Finally, please enlighten me as to what rule applies to a cyclist who insists on passing a vehicle stopped at traffic lights or simply in a congested road, do they have to be a minimum of 1.5 metres away from the side of the vehicle they are passing?"

This is a great question. The best way to think of this is of your experience standing on a train station. When you stand close to the edge of the platform when a train passes through at high speed then there is a lot of noise and movement. That's because you're very close to a heavy object traveling at speed. When the train is stationary but you walk along to get to the right door it doesn't feel dangerous/windy because you're light and moving slowly compared to the train. It's just physics - again hope that doesn't come across as smug. So when a two ton car close passes you on a bike at 30 MPH then it feels very very different to when you filter alongside stationary traffic from, say, 50 cm away.

This is one of the most common misconceptions about these new rules in terms of fairness.

2. "The same must be true if the motorist and cyclist are travelling in opposite directions (ie the car is stationary in traffic driving east and a cyclist passes riding west)." I hope I've explained this above.

3. "I believe that the main problem with cyclists on the road is that they are not educated as road users, or if they are (because they have motorcycle or driving licences) their use of logic goes out of the window as they are all pumped-up on the exercise induced adrenaline."

The opposite is true. In terms of earnings (which I've used as a rough proxy for education) cyclists earn significantly more than other road users. I'm not sure this helps my argument as it's typically because they're middle aged white men in senior management positions and the drivers tend to be van drivers, taxis, mums on school run (who are all doing incredibly valued work it's just not reflected in their paypackets) but the education element isn't actually a correlating factor at all.

4. "As to the claim that cyclist do not injure pedestrians very often. I believe that is a hollow claim, because no evidence has been put forward to support it." It's not a hollow claim. I can't post a link here but there are plenty of studies that car/van/lorries kills many many more people than cyclists which I don't think we'd be surprised about as they're heavier and faster.

5. "Perhaps the caped crusader could start collecting evidence of the indiscretions of cyclists, and urge the police to take greater enforcement action too?"

This is very hard to do as cyclists don't have number plates and it would be hard to identify them. There is also an argument that the effort put into this could prevent more deaths if it were focused on motorists because of point (4).

6."A lot of these regulations get introduced for perfectly sensible reasons, but then have to be amended because of unintended consequences."

I agree. And as I've said I'm really surprised how easy it is to "get" a prosecution with these new rules. I'm not saying it's right or wrong just that it is.

7. " They should give full name, address, and the entire day’s video not just an edited clip."

Currently you have to submit a minutes footage before and after the incident and if the cyclist breaks any rules in those videos they will incriminate and get fined. I'm not sure a day would be viable.

8. "you say SOME are bad but I’ve never ever seen any cyclist stop at a red light before"

Not sure how to react to this. If you've never ever seen any cyclist stop at a red light then that would probably be worth checking out that you're actually looking at a light (red or otherwise) and at a cyclist. I don't mean to be rude and I know you might take it that way but its hard to not what else to write.

9. "The car Driver can insist that the person who took the photograph/video appears in court to give evidence in person which is their right,so driver or legal representative can question them, or case will be dismissed and driver ask for expenses."

Yes you are right. You might have to go to court but the police are only prosecuting people who are clearly "bang to rights" in the videos (there are some exceptions due to mobile phones but the law was tightened up again last Friday to stop the loop holes that got Frank Lampard and others off). The driver also will face a much bigger fine/points if they contest and are found guilty. I suspect very few road users would want to risk the ire of a magistrate who has heard all the arguments before and wants to move on through their day's case.

Thank you.
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Medicalmam
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby Medicalmam » Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:27 pm

I’ve been thinking this over today and I’m not sure what you are doing is in the spirit of the law. I’m assuming the law is about cyclist safety not about cyclists getting priority.
I love to follow rules, I do not jump red lights, I don’t cycle on pavements or across pedestrian crossings, I even give way to pedestrians on the cycle route across Clapham commons!! I like to be considerate and safe to others.
When I cycle and cars are stationary at lights I will cycle slowly down their inside thus, according to you definition, I am breaking the law. If I was to cycle along a road and a car approached me but they slowed and pulled over so that I could safely pass them, even if I didn’t have 1.5m clear on either side of me, I would thank them for being considerate and safe.
I understand reporting people who race passed, forcing me into the side, and ultimately being unsafe but I think reporting everyone who drives towards you because it’s “the cyclists right of way” and you need 1.5m clearance is unrealistic and unneighbourly. It is safe to pass a stationary car if you reduce your speed and go cautiously. A little shared responsibility on shared roads.
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby Medicalmam » Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:28 pm

I’ve been thinking this over today and I’m not sure what you are doing is in the spirit of the law. I’m assuming the law is about cyclist safety not about cyclists getting priority.
I love to follow rules, I do not jump red lights, I don’t cycle on pavements or across pedestrian crossings, I even give way to pedestrians on the cycle route across Clapham commons!! I like to be considerate and safe to others.
When I cycle and cars are stationary at lights I will cycle slowly down their inside thus, according to you definition, I am breaking the law. If I was to cycle along a road and a car approached me but they slowed and pulled over so that I could safely pass them, even if I didn’t have 1.5m clear on either side of me, I would thank them for being considerate and safe.
I understand reporting people who race passed, forcing me into the side, and ultimately being unsafe but I think reporting everyone who drives towards you because it’s “the cyclists right of way” and you need 1.5m clearance is unrealistic and unneighbourly. It is safe to pass a stationary car if you reduce your speed and go cautiously. A little shared responsibility on shared roads.
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atbattersea
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby atbattersea » Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:58 pm

SW11_Cycle wrote:
> I was genuinely surprised how easy it was to generate a fine/points for
> drivers around here and I wanted to post as I honestly think most people
> don't understand how/why.

I think all you are demonstrating is that people don't want to fight fixed penalty notices.

You are probably also demonstrating what considerate motorists most people are: you’ve passed thousands of cars, and you’ve found four in that time that weren’t in the bast of moods.

> Again apologies if that is not the case.
> So when a two ton car close passes you on a
> bike at 30 MPH then it feels very very different to when you filter
> alongside stationary traffic from, say, 50 cm away.

You have not answered the point. The question/point is that it cannot be infringing the law for a car to be within 1.5m of a bicycle, particularly if the cyclist puts it in that position. It is not a question of who feels "safe" or not.

>… I hope I've explained this above.

Given that you have not answered the point, and you are not a lawyer, then you have not.

>
> 3. "I believe that the main problem with cyclists on the road is that
> they are not educated as road users, or if they are (because they have
> motorcycle or driving licences) their use of logic goes out of the window
> as they are all pumped-up on the exercise induced adrenaline."

> The opposite is true. In terms of earnings…

You are missing the point. Cyclists are not educated ***as road users***. Not "as educated as road users". Cyclists in general have no qualifications to ride on the road, and do not have driving licences of any form so have no idea how to act properly on the road. They probably have never read the Highway Code.

I believe that over well over 25 years I have been a safe cyclist, and kept myself safe, precisely because I am educated as a road user, and I use that experience to read the road and avoid accidents. You say that cyclists come into conflict with motorists ever day. I say that if that is the case then they seriously need to consider whether they should be on the road at all and whether they need training in using the road.

I actually find it unbelievable that our great leaders in the GLA (and the conceiver of the idea is now running the country) think it is a good idea to hire out bikes to everyone, without any training whatsoever.

>
> 4. "As to the claim that cyclist do not injure pedestrians very often.
> I believe that is a hollow claim, because no evidence has been put forward
> to support it." It's not a hollow claim. I can't post a link here but
> there are plenty of studies that car/van/lorries kills many many more
> people than cyclists which I don't think we'd be surprised about as they're
> heavier and faster.

Again, you miss the point. Cyclists cause plenty of accidents and injuries to pedestrians. Largely because they ride recklessly and don’t give way to other road users and pedestrians. Of course, if a car hits you at 30mph you are likely going to be have a worse outcome than being hit by a cyclist as 15mph. But that doesn't indicate that cyclists don't have to obey the rules too.

To be able to make a comparison you have take into account the road miles covered. You haven’t done any reasonable research in order to substantiate your claim.


>
> 5. "Perhaps the caped crusader could start collecting evidence of the
> indiscretions of cyclists, and urge the police to take greater enforcement
> action too?"


> This is very hard to do as cyclists don't have number plates and it would
> be hard to identify them. There is also an argument that the effort put
> into this could prevent more deaths if it were focused on motorists because
> of point (4).

But, if you colected the evidence, then perhaps you could persuade the police/TfL to take enforcement action, and help save cyclist's lives by educating the reckless and having better role models.

> 8. "you say SOME are bad but I’ve never ever seen any cyclist stop at
> a red light before"

> Not sure how to react to this. If you've never ever seen any cyclist stop
> at a red light then that would probably be worth checking out that you're
> actually looking at a light (red or otherwise) and at a cyclist. I don't
> mean to be rude and I know you might take it that way but its hard to not
> what else to write.

I agree with that point. It is ridiculous to claim that no cyclists stop at red lights.

I am very much in favour of safety for all road users, but I do genuinely feel that a great deal of education/training needs to be developed for cyclists so that they can try to manage their own safety. You could help with that by showing cyclists, as a cyclist, where they are going wrong.
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wasateacher
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby wasateacher » Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:25 pm

This exchange has reminded me that, when I used to cycle from Battersea to Paddington, the nearest I came to an accident was when leaving Hyde Park on a green light and was very nearly hit by a cyclist going along Bayswater Road and going through a red light.  Lycra louts give all cyclists a bad name and put all in danger - they should not, under any circumstances, be defended or given a sense of justification.
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby Shocked and Appalled » Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:39 am

I am so surprised at this thread and the smugness of the poster. What a thing to do to others in your neighbourhood! As well as agreeing with others who have replied to you, I hasten to add that you see it as very linear: x + 1.5 = correct. Whereas, the police would often see it as a whole picture and use their own discretion and nuance when judging situations. My best friend was speeding in her early 20s shortly after passing her test many years ago, and a police officer pulled her aside, made her rewatch a video of her driving and how dangerous it was, and gave her points, and it changed her life and she is the most careful driver now. There have also been times I’ve heard from my friends where they have been shown the benefit of the doubt by police officers. They are trained to arrest law breakers and uphold the law, so my opinion is that I would leave it to them. Also, I would never be able to live with myself if I spent my days snitching on others like you do. You don’t know who you are uploading videos about. It could be someone caring for an elderly relative with dementia, a nurse coming home from a gruelling night shift in a hospital, someone driving to their very low paid job in McDonald’s just to make ends meet, someone who is driving their partner who has cancer to an appointment, etc etc. This is just shocking and boasting about giving people points when you’re not a police officer yourself has left me speechless.
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Re: SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera

Postby SW11_Cycle » Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:23 am

I know that this post could run and run, and I also know it's not going to be possible to change people's minds so I won't keep replying to all of these comments but I will post a few replies to comments so far:

1. "I am so surprised at this thread and the smugness of the poster." Again apologies if it has come over as this. It wasn't the idea. I simply wanted to share what I think is a surprising situation. I am also a little surprised that people are happy to criticise me for being smug but when someone threatened violence earlier on no-one commented.

2. "My best friend was speeding in her early 20s shortly after passing her test many years ago, and a police officer pulled her aside, made her rewatch a video of her driving and how dangerous it was, and gave her points, and it changed her life and she is the most careful driver now." I think this is a great example of how points can change behaviour - thank you for sharing.

3. " if I spent my days snitching on others like you do." I don't. I just have a camera and have uploaded a few videos. It's not a lifestyle. There are people like Cycling Mikey (google him if you want to know more) for whom it's a way of life.

4. "they should not, under any circumstances, be defended or given a sense of justification." That's quite a blanket statement. Thank you for sharing.

5. " you’ve passed thousands of cars, and you’ve found four in that time that weren’t in the bast of moods."

That's not the case but it's a fascinating insight into how the mood of the driver may affect their driving. Again I think cyclists might feel that they need protection against motorists who aren't in the best of moods and as it's hard to tell which drivers are grumpy or not then perhaps we need protecting against all drivers?

6. "You have not answered the point. The question/point is that it cannot be infringing the law for a car to be within 1.5m of a bicycle, particularly if the cyclist puts it in that position. It is not a question of who feels "safe" or not."

This is, quite literally, the law. There are some exceptions but no motor car should ever be within 1.5 metres of a car if they are passing it, either head on or in an overtake. There are exceptions if the cyclist is filtering.

7. "Cyclists in general have no qualifications to ride on the road, and do not have driving licences of any form so have no idea how to act properly on the road. They probably have never read the Highway Code."

If they haven't read the Highway Code then they should. I agree that is a mistake. They don't need to have qualifications to ride on the roads.

8. "I actually find it unbelievable that our great leaders in the GLA (and the conceiver of the idea is now running the country) think it is a good idea to hire out bikes to everyone, without any training whatsoever."

I think this is a really interesting point. I do also wonder where this is going. We've seen an expansion of LTNs, ULEZ, congestion charge, cycling wands, school streets and now these new Highway Code rules.

I wonder if we are heading to a world where driving a car will be considered to be a bad thing?

I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years our streets will be filled with electric cargo bikes and a motor car on a street will be as rare as a horse and cart is now.

There are old photos of Balham High Street where it's filled with trams and horses and carts and we've left all of those transport modes behind, I think we'll probably look back on the car in the same way.

I'm not sure if that's a good thing, I think it probably is as the roads will be safer and cleaner, but what I am pretty sure of the government policy is so anti-car that this is the direction we're heading.

As I wrote earlier, I don't think I'll change anyone's mind and I really don't mean to be smug so apologies if I am, but I think these are big changes that we're already in the middle of.
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