MMR and Autism Link Locked

[kiwimummy]

dancing_queen, I don't think people have been very harsh towards JSB. As she said, it's an emotive topic, and everyone has expressed concern about her son.

Your post demonstrates exactly the danger with posting misinformation like this. It's junk science. But the more it gets posted, people think there's something in it, and the cycle starts all over again. That'y why vaccine rates dropped putting children at risk in the first place.

I am prepared however to be pretty harsh to mummy dani's post, which is pseduo science conspiracy twaddle and exactly the sort of rubbish I'm talking about.

[mummy_dani]

Very insightful comments you have been posting kiwimummy.
Unless you are a scientist specialising in this field (and I get the impression you're not given the lack of comments other than 'this is rubbish') you really are not in a position to say if something is twaddle or not. A lot of people have taken the time to research the subject and whether you accept what they are saying or not is up to you, but do not criticise them for having differing views. Nobody is advocating not vaccinating
children ... quite the opposite ... we have all said to opt for the single vaccines. You are right in that MMR vaccine rates dropped but more people took up the single vaccines.
Now I suggest you get back in your box and stop telling people to shut up about a topic you clearly find annoying.

[Happymama]

I am afraid I also think some of you are being a little too aggressive and a little unfair. I have re read all the posts and in none of them JSB is saying that you should not vaccinate children. She is just making people aware that there is an option and that not all children react well to the MMR jab. My son had a terrible reaction to the MMR jab and they think it was because his immune system was just not strong enough.

I could be wrong but i don't think it's a crime just to let people know there could be an option?

[AnaLy]

Completely agree with BalahammumworkingFT, the real scandal is that Wakefield's fraudulent research has influenced so many people who still believe there is a link between the MMR and Autism. He was stripped of his right to practice medicine in the UK and fled to the US to do private work. Research speaks for itself and their is no evidence of a link. The sad outcome is that increasing numbers of children in the UK now catch these preventable illnesses and some with lifethreatening consequences as a result of all of this confusion.

[mummy_dani]

For those who do not believe that there is any link, you have to appreciate that for those who have personal experiences of either children developing autism following the MMR or simply having a bad reaction to it, it is going to be very difficult to persuade them that there is no risk at all to the MMR.
It seems that instead of reading papers on the subject a lot of people are happy to accept the position that because Prof Wakefield was discredited, that is the end of the matter. Not wanting to be flippant, but there was a time when people thought the earth was flat ... not everyone accepted that and faced ridicule for saying otherwise and yet they were right to challenge the view. Just because a theory is out there does not mean things do not change when faced with further investigations and research.

[Vives09]

I am a healthcare scientist (infectious diseases) and I have two children who are at the mild end of the autistic spectrum (high functioning/Asperger's). I was taking my MSc when the whole furore about the MMR started so had to form an opinion about Dr. Wakefield's research, then looked into it again when I had my children, and have been keeping an eye on what's going on with it via Medline (abstracts from peer reviewed, published papers can be viewed for free on-line through Pubmed, amongst others).

As far as I can see there is no research proving there's a direct causal link between the MMR and autism, and a lot of research against it. There are a few studies with a question mark against mercury which is more likely to be environmental than through vaccination (For example see this - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19106436 ) and which may possibly affect some children with a (possibly genetic) predisposition towards autism, although there needs to be further research into the mechanisms

There seem to be a number of different causes of autism, so in any case what causes it in one child won't cause it in another, but there seems to be a genetic link in most cases. As another poster said, they are also diagnosing a lot more of the milder cases now, and I would actually question the 1 in 98 figure - in my kids school it's probably 1 in 60 or higher (anecdotally) since I personally know three other children on the spectrum, but at the mild end they largely fit in, have (sometimes odd) friendships and do well.

I do think though that this is a subject which is very complex, and people have to make their minds up based on their experiences and reading. I agree with JSB in that it's worth doing some research, and I'm also a BIG fan of vaccines (single if it makes you happy ).

[Vives09]

This is a blog which is also worth reading :-
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ind ... ypothesis/

[Lionheart]

The vehemence of some of these responses is unnecessary. I think making a subject like this out of bounds is more damaging to MMR uptake than a friendly, open discussion where people can put others’ minds at risk or, at ‘worst’, encourage them to do some research themselves. This is why some people are driven to sites/forums that may be misleading or scaremongering.

JSB suggests people research what they are putting into their children - surely a good thing. Vaccines contain preservatives, and multiple vaccines in one shot contain more preservatives, so as to ensure they are effective. Why not opt for the vaccine with least preservatives where possible? After all, it’s what I do when selecting food in the supermarket for my son.

Vaccinating is all about relative risk: the risk of contracting a disease and suffering some of its (potentially life-changing) complications against the risk of an adverse reaction to the MMR vaccination – or indeed, any vaccination. Nothing comes without risk: this was said to me by my very pro-vaccine GP father. There is a lack of evidence to link MMR with autism: therefore, to me, it was safer to have my child immunised than not. However, there was a further complication: my son had been in hospital with a series of very high fevers and our experiences with him over the past few months led us to be a bit concerned about the state of his immune system. He was to be immunised with MMR at the same time as Hib/MenC and the pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV). We thought that seemed a lot to have all in one go. After much deliberating, we opted for the single measles jab, single Hib/Men C (I believe this was a booster, as he’d had it previously) and single PCV. Each vaccine was spaced out over a number of weeks.

As people have said elsewhere in this thread, there are a whole range of things that could cause/contribute to autism. Genetic predisposition, vaccines, preservatives, exposure to certain plastics/metals; the list goes on. I hope research will eventually get to the bottom of it. However, it is depressing that anecdotal reports linking a vaccine with autism, such as JSB’s, are so often met by knee-jerk contempt. I would certainly be asking questions if my son suffered an immediate adverse reaction to a vaccine, followed by a significant regression in development.

People’s individual immune systems react to vaccines in different ways and a very small minority experience serious side effects, hence the existence of the Vaccine Damage Payments Unit (which falls under the Department for Work and Pensions). Nevertheless, for the majority of people, it’s vastly safer to be vaccinated than to risk catching the disease against which the vaccine offers protection. It is not, however, a bad thing to suggest that people research and weigh up these risks before vaccinating.

[Jetsettingbaby]

One of my main concerns about vaccines is like lionheart said . They get a lot all in one go. I will get my other children vaccinated against the MMR but will get it in single doses I will pay for that. The reason I am lobbing the government and supported by a number of high profile people is to get the government to get the MMR separated. Make the vaccines green. Not to get rid of them. My son obviously had a weaker immune system, and could not take all those vaccines, and I just WISH that my dr had actually looked at Dylan as a person rather than just another baby to get vaccinated. We need to protect the weaker babies. Both my self and my partner got tested for autism to see if it was genetic. Neither one of us carry it. SO there fore the chance of Dylans autism being genetic is very low. SO it has to be another factor that have caused this. SInce I have had dylan on his diet and cocktail of things, he has improved significantly which is a great sign. We all want the best for our precious babies, it our job to protect them ( and that includes vaccinating them). We as mums know our babies the best out of anyone in the world, and if you feel that your baby has a lower immune system or even in Dylans case he cant take cows milk, so his gut is obviously weaker.Then perhaps we should ask to have it separated.

[Vives09]

I'd be interested to know about this genetic test for an autism gene. As far as I know there isn't one, just as there is no definitive test for autism itself. This is a genuine question by the way, I would actually like to know, I'm not trying to be difficult.

[peasepudding]

Jetsettingbaby, I'm really sorry for what has happened to you and your family. I don't think any of us can begin to imagine the strain you are under and I think it's completely understandable that you a) want to find a reason for it and b) want to tell other people what you believe is the reason for it.

But Measles is a killer, Rubella is extremely dangerous to unborn children and Mumps can be extremely dangerous to adults who haven't had it (and cause sterility in men). As someone who had measles very young and almost lost my hearing as a result, I am desperate to do what I can to protect my own children from all of this, as are most people. Currently the MMR vaccine is the best thing to give my children and I'm very glad to have done it. The point of vaccines is that it works collectively, you have to remove the disease from the population to ensure it doesn't affect anyone vulnerable, by choosing not to vaccinate, you are increasing the chances of the at risk population being exposed.

As a medical researcher myself, I can say I've read the paper that Andrew Wakefield wrote that started the outcry about links between MMR and autism and I've read a lot of research since that has debunked his theories and proved them wrong. I've also read that Andrew Wakefield had a personal interest in promoting the use of single vaccines as he owned a company that was investing in them. I can tell you from looking at PubMed right now, that the research that debunked Wakefield's theories was funded by independent research councils and was nothing to do with vaccine companies. I do think the government has fully investigated this and there are only so many times you can publish data that says there is nothing there to worry about; I don't think this research that says there is nothing wrong has been promoted by the media to the same level as the original research that stated the opposite. MMR used here is extremely safe and does not contain mercury.

I haven't read Jenny McCarthy's book but I have read a lot of peer-reviwed medical research from respected scientists that discredits what she has said about it. At the end of the day, she is also a scared mother of an autistic child also looking for someone to blame, and with her fame has a good pedestal to spout her various theories.

I have also read recent articles that suggest there is a gene for autism, that autism is usually only identified at the same age MMR is given which is why the link is thought to have been established. Yes, it's much more widely diagnosed these days. I went to a normal primary school and had a child with severe Asperger's in my class in the early 80's who went undiagnosed until he was in his teens. Something like that could never slip through the net these days. This child's father was probably also high on the autism spectrum (his wife has said this since her son's diagnosis) but had not only gone undiagnosed but also married and had kids. I was not surprised to hear about genetic links. I have heard of families having more than one autistic child which I think reiterates this fact.

I'd be interested to hear who the neurologist is that says he believes the link between MMR and autism, it's very rare to hear this from a licensed doctor these days. In my experience, natural health practitioners are not medically trained and are far too often more interested in promoting their own products or practises than in understanding the problem. I think they too often tell you what you want to hear to encourage you to feel listened to and encourage you to come back.

I am so sorry for what is happening to you and I do appreciate what you're trying to do here but I don't think this is a wise approach. Discouraging someone from vaccinating their child when it could cause severe harm in the long run is a lot of responsibility to bear.

[mummy_dani]

peasepudding ... JSB is not discouraging people from vaccinating their children but simply to look at alternatives to the MMR such as the single vaccine. The measles jab is given at the same age as the MMR would be given and so the child is not at any more risk of contracting measles than any other.

[Happymama]

Peasepudding the original poster has never discouraged anyone from vaccinating their children ??

As I said in a previous post my son had a really bad reaction to the MMR jab. I would NEVER not vaccinate my children but with my son's medical history (and weak immune system) if I had known at the time that I had the option to do the 3 vaccines separately I would have gone down that route. I think that is all the original poster was trying to say ?

[peasepudding]

But Happymama, the whole premise of the post is to discourage from using MMR. While, yes you can have your children vaccinated on a single vaccine basis, this isn't available on the NHS and the majority of people don't want to pay for it. People will end up not vaccinating at all because of this which is the worst thing that can happen.

[Raspberry-Sorbet]

This was something I agonised about 4 years ago when my eldest daughter was approaching her MMR. I was adamant that she would have the vaccines separately (I had no personal doubt that she should have them although she did have a reaction to the diphtheria jab that was reported back to the drug company) but my husband was not convinced so I spent hours reading and researching and in the end I came across a paper that was hundreds of pages long, discussing the MMR vs the single vaccines across Europe. The stats in this paper showed that more children had died following a single jab than the combined jab. The numbers for both were low and perhaps because in all cases the child had existing health problems that meant they couldn't cope with the vaccine. At that point, it was a very easy decision to me to opt to have the mmr. I reached this decision based on my daughter being generally well and healthy with no allergies and I felt that in this instance, the chances of a serious reaction were far less than catching one of the diseases.
At 16 weeks, the babies have 3 jabs which I think amounts to about 7 different viruses that are injected (need to check in red book!)
I felt that was such a lot, would that make the MMR any worse....
With my youngest daughter, I did go back to have the men c. and pcv as I did feel that was too much with the MMR especially as when my eldest had her MMR, it was not given with anything else.
It is of course a personal choice and I would be cautious if my child had any health problems, my own choice is that my girls so far are up to date with all their vaccines.