Positive discrimination being battled by public schools Post Reply

[Gayville]

ColdatChristmas - if everyone went to state schools, then of course some of the pupils (including those who would otherwise have gone private), will get into the top universities. Going to a state school isn't going to dim the talent of the best kids.

Wasateacher - As you say, little evidence that private schools are better than state - yet why do privately educated kids end up in so many of the top jobs? I don't think for a second that it's because they offer a "better" education - though obviously some are exceptional - but its also to do with the contacts and getting to mix with all the right kind of people who will be influential in your future career.

And I agree that the league tables are laregely meaningless - as you say most private schools are selective - certainly in my part of London, highly selective, so of course they are going to get great results. They could be taught by a monkey and they'd still do well. Would be interesting to see how well the staff at a private school do with some more challenging pupils in the state sector.

[coldatchristmas]

State kids can't get in because the RESOURCES (not teaching) are better at indy schools.

Small class sizes, more money to spend on equipment and class trips etc etc

So if you give everyone big class sizes, few resources and teachers drowning in admin they will secure worse results.

Which is why such a small relative % of state kids go to Oxbridge.

By dragging all children down to the under-resourced (NOT worse taught) state sector the results will also fall.

Therefore less kids get in to Oxbridge.

What I don't understand is why the families of state kids don't say "look at the amazing results that can be got with more resources, come on Cameron give them to my children"

THAT is the way to beat the indy sector, just get better results.

[Gayville]

All that small class sizes guarantee are hefty school fees! What's most imporrtant is not so much class size as the quality of the teaching. Better an inspirational teacher with 30 kids, than some dullard in charge of 10.

[CitySlicker]

What about "coaching" your primary school kids to get into Tiffin or any of the Sutton grammars? Then you get the best of both worlds, state education with private school standards.
The reality is, most children in state schools do well/get into top universities if they have parents who care about their education and support them in their learning etc.
I guess the underlying issue here is the "unfair advantage" that private school children have. Well quite frankly, that's life, so if you happen to not be born into a world of priviledge, you have to work a bit harder to get ahead. One of lifes great truths, there are always going to be people with advantage over others, but if you work hard, no reason you shouldn't be able to succeed.
I'm sure if a bright kid from Graveney was dead set on going to Oxford, and pulled out every stop possible to get there, she could do it. The fact that she might have to work a bit harder than her Eton counterpart is just the way it is. Depends on how much she wants itand how hard she is prepared to pursue/work for it.

[Gayville]

I may be a bit of a idealist, but just because things are unfair at the moment doesn't mean to say we shouldn't strive to make things a bit more equal. Of course life isn't fair and some people are always going to be born with a silver spoon in their mouth, but there are some things which are absolutely fundamental, such as education and health, where in my opinion you shouldn't be able to buy your way to the front of the queue for preferential treatment/education.(Unlike, ,for example, driving a BMW rather than a lada which doesn't affect your life chances in the way that education does). Hence my one woman campaign for the abolition of the private education sector. (despite having a child at private school, I don't fundamentally agree with it). And I think it will take bit more for some state school kids to get to Oxbridge than a bit of backbone and hard work. For many kids at state school, the likes of Oxbridge is just not on their radar, and they are of the opinion that "it's not for the likes of us". This attitude should change, and it certainly would change more quickly if all children attended good state schools.

[Sherlika]

I don't agree with this. I attended private primary and secondary schools myself, but my son goes to a wonderful state school. He has high-functioning autism and I could not put him in a private school where I know he won't be given a chance to thrive. He is one of the top students, very academic and happy in his state school.

I don't agree with system of private schools. It is all about results and not learning.

[Gayville]

Sherlika, I don't agree with private schools either, so I think we are actually in agreement!

[Sherlika]

My cousins went to prestigious state schools such as Cardinal Vaughan. They come from very affluent family. Their father is a judge and their mum, my cousin, a specialist doctor with Phd (non-British by the way.)
The parents refused to pay private school and the kids never had any private tuition. One left the country to study in Canada as he wants to be an animator and the other one is now starting a Master degree in a prestigious British university.

You can achieve a lot with state schools and if you need to pay a lot of tuition for your child, I am sorry, but you have a thick kid like Mr Gove himself said: ' a rich thick kid' (the ones who rule this country, by the way.)

[MGMidget]

Gayville watch your tax bill rise and rise if independent schools are abolished! I agree with Balhammum on this, taxpayers can't afford private schools to be abolished. Some who chose to go private make financial sacrifices to do it or get help (e.g. from the grandparents). They wouldn't necessarily be the ones clobbered with a big extra tax bill, it would be spread amongst many middle earners. I also think private schools provide a role model to aim for in some cases. Some academies are trying to emulate some aspects of the private sector for example. Don't bring everything down to the lowest common denominator, strive for excellence, copy the best!

[Sherlika]

My last post on this subject. One thing I am tired about this country: this class war in England is really tiresome and nonsensical. I don't understand why it is so important to speak posh, go to a private school.

I was watching Mad Men in the summer and there is a British guy working in NYC. The father of the Brit went to see him and did mention, If can correctly recall, the fact that he is not in England. He then said: ' it's true. I am not in England because nobody asked which school I attended.'

That's when I woke up and realised how England has a sick attitude towards classes: middle class, upper class, who cares?

[Gayville]

MG Midget, I am not trying to drag everyone down to the lowest common denominator; far from it. What I would like to see is every child being given the SAME opportunities for a great education, rather than the elite few being able to afford a private education system

And Sherlika, your family were fortunate to fulfil the stringent criteria to get into Cardinal Vaughan; a school like that is hardly a typical state school as you are probably aware. It is highly selective - hence the brilliant results - and unless you are a dyed in the wool fully paid up Catholic who lives within a stones throw of the school then you are highly unlikely to get in.
As I am not religious, then faith schools were not an option for us when my son transferred to secondary school. Despite gaining 97% in the Wandsworth test he was only offered a place at our 5th choice of state school, (Ernest Bevin), so he is far from thick. I was quite impressed by EB when I visited, and its results are improving year on year. However, what put me off the school is that it is overwhelmingly Asian. And before you all start screaming "racist' at me, I decided i didn't want my child to be an ethnic minority of about one. And I think I made the right decision because two of my sons friends went to EB in year seven, and have been relentlessly bullied by the Asian boys for being "infidels", for not reading the Koran etc. One of these boys has now been taken out of the school by his parents, the other is still there but struggling.

[Honeymummy]

'Private schools should be open to all' (means-tested bursaries for 'talented' children whose parents can't affort fees) -

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 01027.html

[BalhamMumWorkingFT]

Gosh, I must say, London schools are the hardest thing to put your head around. I thought selection in primary was bad... but it seems secondary is 1000 times worse...

I do hope everyone can sort out a good education for their children. I really think that it is a very personal choice with high stakes financially for a family if it doesn't work out to plan. I am also glad I love the school my kids are in. It was a nightmare and its sorted... after many tears, heartache, anger, etc.

[Mrs Contractor Mum]

One of the key issues I had at my state school was how my aspirations were stifled. At infants’ school when asked what I wanted to be when I was older and I said an astronaut, I was mocked by the teacher for such a fanciful notion and psychologically thought - oh, I can't do that then, best not try. This mentality followed me all the way through my education to not think out of the box or force me and my cohorts into aiming what the teachers thought we could do rather than what we wanted. I'm not saying all state teachers do this but this attitude was particularly endemic in the schools I went to. Thankfully at home I had parents telling me that I could do anything I wanted to (through hard work!).
I believe the key difference between a good independent and a poor state school is the ambition they give children to achieve anything.
Saying that, having shaken of the shackles of my education and maintained my parents faith in me, I now spend a lot of my time managing and advising very bright, privately educated Oxbridge staff often older than myself - and subsequently earn a lot more than they do. Who knows where I would be if I had the opportunity to ‘go private’?

[momtomum]

As an American living in London, I find this all baffling. And honestly it makes me mad.

I know America was founded in part on a rebellion against the class system in England. Americans fiercely defend the idea of equal opportunity.

I think we must recognize that while talent is universal, opportunity is not. The "best and brightest" are not just born into families who can afford private schools. The state schools should absolutely raise standards, especially for the children who are bright. Give them an opportunity to succeed. But also remember that some incredibly bright children are born into families where the parents may be poor, working two or three jobs to just pay the rent and keep food on the table, not able to afford private tutors for exams.

I don't think the current system in the UK favors the best and the brightest. It is based primarily on exam results - so it favors the children who have the best preparation for the tests. Test results are not the same thing is intelligence or potential. Some brilliant people don't test well. Some average people can test very, very well with preparation.

One thing I like about the system in the US is that universities look at the whole student - including things like challenges they have overcome. Test results and marks count, but so does service to the community, exceptional talent in a sport or art, or a story of overcoming adversity.

I'll say it again. Talent is universal, opportunity is not.