Positive discrimination being battled by public schools Post Reply

[Cath22]

'Indy' is a pretty dodgy word too!

[coldatchristmas]

Hi
To be clear, I am not calling state school pupils muppets.

What I said is that Oxbridge will not accept muppets for its courses.

Whether we like it or not our best universities are the best in the world and that means they attract international students.

So our UK students are competing with the very best students in the world.

If we simply abolish the very best schools then our standards will drop and then we will have less kids going to the best universities.

Then all the interesting and rewarding jobs, both financially and spiritually, will go elsewhere.

I think its a shame.

[schoolgatesmum]

I wouldn't abolish the actual private schools, I would make them accessible to all - i.e. turn them into academies (some private schools which are running out of money have already done this). That way, everyone would have a similar choice. Maybe this is what Cameron meant when he talked about spreading privilege (although I very much doubt it!).

[Gayville]

[quote="coldatchristmas"]
"If we simply abolish the very best schools then our standards will drop and then we will have less kids going to the best universities."

Coldatchristmas - it's simply not the case that all the best schools are private. There are many state schools doing a brilliant job, it's just rather patchy, and very dependent on where you live, so a complete post code lottery.
And if we DID abolish private schools, then all those former independently schooled kids would have to go to state schools, and you can guarantee that standards would soon improve as all those pushy parents would be cajoling, encouraging, and jostling to ensure that's the case. They wouldn't stand for anything less, so we would all benefit. Every pupil from a dustman's daughter to a princess would all receive an equally good education on a level playing field.And the benefits in terms of the more equal society that would result would be immense.

[juliantenniscoach]

"Hi
Ok so lets say I do what you say.

I abolish all the indy schools.

Then no-one gets into the great universities.

Is that what you want?"

It doesn't make sense. If the schools were abolished then it's just a building. The children still exist and would still be educated. They would become part of the state system as would the teaching staff.

The brightest students would still go to Universities wherever they were educated, it's just relative. Now the argument that private schools are an asset to the UK and the value of that asset outweighs one of fairness is completely different. But to say that by abolishing the schools no one goes to Oxbridge Level University is bewildering.

[Gayville]

I never said that abolishing private schools would mean that no one would get into Oxbridge or other good universities. Far from it. It would level the playing field and ensure that EVERYONE got access to a great education, not just those who can afford to pay for it, or to pay for a house in a postcode where there are good state schools. Then the brightest and the best from ALL backgrounds would have the opportunity to go to our top universities. What is it about that that's so hard to understand?

[schoolgatesmum]

I'm prepared to be shot down in flames but as a friend of mine put it - people can pretend all they want that they choose private education for academic reasons/facilities/access to extra curricular activities/smaller classes etc. but really most of them don't want their children to mix with "undesirables". Which is why people wouldn't really want all children to have the same choice. People pay for exclusivity.

[CitySlicker]

I must say I wholeheartedly agree with schoolgatesmum. It's why most people in this hood like that it is perceived as wealthy, predominantly white and middle class. Everyone loves the diversity of London, from afar.
I am always surprised, after 6 years BTC, the acute difference when you cross from Northcote Road over Battersea Rise to St Johns Road.

But I digress. It's probably also why people clamber to get into Honeywell, you get the same relative exclusivity without having to pay for it. (in my humble opinion)

[Oldkidontheblock]

Cameron tells us in his speech to the Tory party conference that he wants every child to have a great education and that his mission is not to defend privilege but to spread it. Surely the best way to do this is to abolish all private schools, channeling the money and commitment of the families who buy education into the state system? How else will he be able to ensure that EVERY child in Britain will enjoy the same opportunities and privileges that he did?

[SoConfused!]

I really did not want to contribute to this post … but I am absolutely shocked at your post schoolsgatemum. Yes I am one of those awful parents that sends their kids to a private school because unfortunately we live in a bit of a black hole in terms of state schools. I had to go back to work in order to pay for the school fees. I am definitely not in the minority in our class – there are plenty of other families that are having to work very hard to send their kids privately. Why didn’t I accept the school I was offered by the council ? Because frankly it was miles away from my house and yes because in my opinion the academic standards of the school were pretty poor. I am sure that you now will all tell me that I should have sent my kids there anyway and have thrown myself into the PTA to help improve the school. The reality is that I don’t want my children to struggle for years, hoping that maybe one day the school might improve. Both my husband and I were educated at a state school – one of us has very happy memories of their school years and the other one with less happy memories. We are both lucky enough to have a lovely and very wide variety of friends from all different backgrounds. And I can tell you one thing for sure – NEVER but NEVER the thought that I didn’t want my children to mix with what you call “undesirables” crossed my mind. And thinking about the parents in my children’s classes I don’t think many would think like that either. Reading your post makes me really sad. What a horrendous assumption you make.

[Oldkidontheblock]

My own experience and that of friends suggest to me there are just as many undesirables (ie neglected, wild and unhappy children) at private schools as there are at state schools. One difference appears to be that the privately educated ones have more cash and seem to be able to get themselves and their friends into serious trouble with drugs and alcohol from as young as 13.

[Gayville]

Hurrah Oldkidontheblock, someone who understands what I keep banging on about!
I think there is a certain type of person, who has in all likelihood been privately educated themselves, and simply doesn't understand the state system and thinks that by throwing money at the problem, then their children will automatically receive the best education. Not necessarily the case of course. The only thing that small class sizes guarantee are very big fees! Better to have a great inspirational teacher in charge of 35 kids, than some bumbling fool trying to teach 12.
But by doing away with private schools all the effort and resources currently being poured into that system can be invested in great state education for ALL our children, and go a long way to improving the disgraceful level of social immobility in this country.

[juliantenniscoach]

Having re-read the posts I think I've misinterpreted your comments. I'm no fan of private schools based on my own experience. I lived around the country due to my Dad's work and went to a Grammar school (really good), Private school (dreadful from a social point of view and poor educationally) and a new Comprehensive (also really good from all aspects).

However unless there's a Marxist takeover in the UK, private schools will never be abolished, Parliament would never pass it. Which party would put in their manifesto and have a chance of being elected? There is an argument for ensuring that all independent schools are wholly funded privately and receive no benefit from taxpayers. To be honest I don't know what the current financial relationship is between the State and Private schools.

We live in an area where many, not all, families can afford by choice to send their children to private schools. There are many families who have to make great sacrifices because they have made the choice that they want a specific type of education or more likely, they unfortunately cannot access the school of their choice. I wouldn't want to exercise any veto over their freedom of choice.

Unfortunately this area has created victims of it's own success in terms of house prices, schools and variety of independently owned businesses.

[schoolgatesmum]

@SoConfused. I am sorry that my post made you sad; that wasn't my intention I didn't mean to imply that all people who send their children to private school felt this way. Which bit are you absolutely shocked by? Do you believe that this is not the case at all? I certainly know of people who would not want their children mixing with a certain type of child. I even knew someone who wouldn't consider Belleville because "they are not the right kind of children" (this was back in 2006). I was state educated for primary and secondary. My primary was very middle class but my secondary was very mixed both socially and racially. It was not an academic school - only 4 of my year group went onto university. It was in the inner city and struggled for years - it has subsequently closed. My parents would have sent us to private school but could not afford it. And there are many, many people who also cannot afford private school, even with both parents working. If you are sure that the mix of children at the state schools that were offered to your peers never crossed thier minds then fantastic and apologies to anyone who I may have offended.

[Gayville]

Juliantenniscoach - yes I know it's highly unlikely that it will ever happen, bar a commie takeover, but to say that you wouldn't want to veto someone's power of choice brings me back to that hoary old chestnut; the fact that it is only those with money who have the choice! I am aware that lots of parents make sacrifices to send their kids to private school - I am one of them. We are permanently broke, drive one clapped out car, our house is falling to bits and we can never afford to go on nice holidays (also have another son in the state sector). If we had to pay for both of them I would have to take up pole dancing or something, as it would just be impossible financially. But even so, we are still financially better off than the vast majority of the population, (average salary in this country about £25k i think, maybe nearer £30k in London). For someone on that level of income then private school is completely impossible.