Difference between private and state Post Reply

[ready2pop]

Is tutoring as common in the schools that go to 13 ( so for common entrance rather than 11+)?

What happens at Northcote Lodge where the school day doesn't end until 5.30. Are they tutored at weekends?

[broodje]

ready2pop,

There is no need to tutor for CE at 13+ because it's not competitive. It's pass or fail, not "you have to do better than 400 other kids that applied." So you will tutor, or call it remedial teaching, only if a child is struggling academically or in a specific subject, but only to the degree as to get to pass mark - conditional offers would have been made way before taking CE!

CE passmarks would be 70% for St.Paul's and 60% for a reasonably selective school, many have it at 55%. St Paul's I believe has to be in every subject, not an average, so is quite tough. To get an average 60-65% is very doable for a bright kid. Plus you know the exact syllabus and tons of past papers - which is not the case for 11+ in London!

Day schools at 13+, I don't know, but I think it's still easier than 11+ because it's more balance - you take Maths, English, Modern Language and Science so much easier to shine and other subject can balance out the weaker ones. Plus not VR/NVR c***

[broodje]

BFW,

Everyone tutors for selective London day schools - either by themselves or with an external tutor. Both are tutoring for me, doesn't matter if you do it yourself or with an external paid party.

Headmaster will tell you what he tells you, of course. He will also tell you that he has to disclose the tutoring in a report and that senior schools take a dim view of that unless tutoring is recommended by prep school for specific issues. They have to say that!

With regards to school exams, we have them too, every term. So what? They have no bearing to 11+ entry exam and I don't see this as a competitive advantage vs state schools who don't. They also do mocks every week in Yr6 in the run up to January exams. I don't like it - just extra stress and fatigue for the kids. Timed papers EVERY week are pointless as kids become jaded (that's my view anyway). You need to have experience of timed tests, but 3-4 will suffice. You need a little bit of adrenaline rush when you take you papers in January and with the above, it will all be gone. I actually think it's quite value destroying.

What's much more valuable is to go through papers one on one, identifying weak areas, doing more work/explanation there, focusing on showing the workings out, then doing a couple of other problems of similar kinds. Teaching to read wordy questions twice, underline information, etc. That's useful. Preps schools that I know don't do it. Perhaps, there are some that do in which case indeed you don't need to tutor.

[ready2pop]

Thanks for the reply Broodje but lots of the common entrance schools do pre- selection tests themselves too (and interviews) which are mainly VR, logic etc... again. And some have their own formal exams too (like Winchester). So it is a little more complicated.

[LocalBatterseaGirl]

This is obviously a very stressful subject and I don't relish the thought of what I'll do when my young children get to secondary age. I do know though that I won't be sending them to independent schools. As a visiting specialist teacher I have been to a lot of state and private schools across the England and Scotland and there are very few of either kind that I wouldn't send my children to. This has done nothing to lessen my conviction that it is wrong to have such a thing as a private school. Independent schools sometimes benefit from more extensive facilities (for sport, arts, etc) and often smaller class sizes - both things that would benefit any child. Their main benefit though is, I think, the added education capital brought by well educated and ambitious parents. If all this (and the funding - not fees but legacies, fundraising etc) was brought into the state sector the expectations of traditional state school pupils would be raised and the traditionally privately educated would receive a more rounded experience of social breadth and thinking outside the box. I've heard here before that 'I'm not going to make a stand' or 'I agree but I'm not 'experimenting' with my child's education'. We could easily afford a private education for our children but 'I wouldn't dream of depriving them of the privilege of a state education.' (Can't remember who said this originally!). I think more bright state school pupils should be given the chance to achieve highly academically but the corollary of this is that fewer middle class children should be sausage machined through an academic system they are not temperamentally suited to. The major advantage of private schools is that they are a networking forum for later life - I hope that, with the school's support and mine, my children will get on in life without this early pressure.

[ladyofacertainage]

TUTORING!!! I have 3 kids at selective south London secondary schools ( Dulwich College and JAGS) All went to private primary, none were tutored, all got in as the school prepared them well and they have no particular difficulties ( dyslexia etc). All the kids in the bottom streams were tutored to get in (or came up from the junior school attached) and have to be tutored to keep up, they are not happy. If your child doesn't make the grade then maybe it's not the right school for them. The biggest problem nowadays is all school aspire for total academic excellence when not all children are cut out for all A* grades, there is more to life then being top of the class. This leaves kids who in other areas of the country would be classed as bright being classed as second rate which they are not.
If your children have specific needs ( dyslexia/dyspraxia etc) then it is another thing as some of them will have to learn other ways of coping/learning which most school don't have enough resources to provide, a specialist tutor can be invaluable then.

[BFW]

Thank you ladyofacertainage for your post !! I have to admit that I was really depressed reading Broodje's posts (although very informative!).

Perhaps I continue to be naive about this but hubby and I had a long chat about this and we have decided that unless there is a specific issue that one of our kids needs help with, we will not tutor. It just seems absolutely mad at this age and given what we are currently spending on school fees ! Perhaps I will be eating my words in a few years time and will be posting on NVN that we didn't get a place in any of the schools we were looking at but as ladyofacertainage in my opinion quite rightly said - perhaps if our kids don't get in on their own merit then the school is not the right place for them.

I really found reading about children being tutored (presumably after a long day at school?) quite depressing.....but as I said in a previous post perhaps its because I am not from this country and I don't understand the system. Maybe its time to go back home !!!

[jafina]

Just a comment re: the "everyone tutors" post. My children are not and will not be tutored. They are at one of the private schools mentioned earlier in the thread and are nearing the 11+.

I have heard of a few acquaintances using private tutors but none of my close friends with children at independents use them. TBH we are spending enough money on school fees. I agree to tutoring for children with very specific weaknesses but otherwise it's madness!

[BalhamMumWorkingFT]

Going back to the differences between private and state...

1. Private tends to have longer days and more holidays. Kids from as young as 8 will be in school until around 5ish. This is so they can play more sport. Some also go on Saturdays

2. Sports are more ingrained into the curriculum. Meaning everyone (all girls / all boys) play. Most kids know the basic sports rules by age 8. This means going from State to private might be a little harder at age 9 after the kids have had a full year of competitive team sports.


3. Off curriculum studies is also encouraged. We do science club, drama club, etc.. Which builds on their classroom experience and nurtures a bit. Not to say state doesn't offer, just saying there is more variety in private.

4. Class sizes are smaller.. under 20 usually and more staff in general.

5. We have everything through school: swimming, football, Multi-sport (in addition to PE), Violin, Music etc... Our Saturdays are not filled with mornings of running from class to class.

BUT before age 8, I think the differences are very small when you looks at side by side comparison. And Everyone is different. Private makes sense to us as we both work and find our time with the kids is very much ours.

[LMC1]

Just to add my "two pennies worth" on tutoring, although I guess we will not know whether this has been "worth it" until next March (eldest is currently in year 6). Here was our thinking. She is in a local state primary school, where they do not (and I am glad they do not - I want her doing much more interesting and useful things at school) spend any time on preparation for either the state school tests (we live near Graveney, but not near enough!) or the private school ones. Our daughter is pretty bright, but we did not want to send her into the exams without some preparation as to what to expect and how to deal with the questions etc. I know that the VR and NVR are supposed to test ability, but IMHO you need someone to explain to you how they work (I cannot do lots of the NVR ones, and if you are judging by acadameic achievement I am supposed to be pretty bright). On the private school exams, by way of example, she needed guidance on how to answer comprehension questions - use a full sentence, repeat back the question etc. We have therefore had a weekly tutor since the Easter of Year 5 (so it will be 9-10 months in total) and so far have been pleased with how it is going - as I say, the real test is next Spring!

One slightly throw away comment on private versus state primaries, one thing which we did not consider at the time but in hindsight has, I think, been important for us, is the amount of homework. Our Yr 1 daughter has some reading, 6 words to practise spelling and one piece of "homework" (this week it was draw a picture of your birthday party!) per week. This to me is enough at 5 years old (in fact I would prefer less) - she is in school 6 hours a day, 5 days a week to learn this stuff. Friends with children in private schools (alhtough I am sure this varies a bit) have had to struggle with forcing youngsters to do homework on a daily basis after a long day at school from the age of 4.

[MGMidget]

ladyofacertainage and BalhamworkingmumFT, I am encouraged by your comments as we hope not to have to tutor either. As I see it a private school should be preparing children for the next school so tutoring should be the exception not the rule. I hope it stays that way and that we don't feel forced to tutor simply to have a level playing field with everyone else! For state schools though I think it may be more necessary if you are hoping to move your child from state to private school simply to have familiarity with the type of exams they have to sit.

Re differences I have observed (and we have some experience of local outstanding state as well as private):

As BalhammumworkingFT and Northcote Luvvie says plus the following (in our school):

More opportunities to discover/develop talents early (singing, acting, sport, languages etc) as the curriculum and extra-curricular activities on offer tend to be wider and available from a young age. This means standards can get very high in later years with some children getting picked out for national competition.
More individual attention - can work well at both ends of the spectrum (e.g. help on weak areas and extension for the gifted/talented). Obviously this is available in state schools too but I would say there's more of it on offer in our son's private school.
Lots of subjects taught by specialist teachers - which means high standards from what I've seen so far.
Very strong on the basic 3Rs from an early age. Lot of effort put into this means progress seems to be very good. Extra help available (included in the fees) for any areas of weakness identified.
High expectations - all children encouraged to do their best all the time. All schools would say they do this but its extent to which it is noticed and rewarded in our school that stands out for me.
There is more encouragement and acceptance of competition from an early age.

Many of these things can be supplemented by parents outside of school in the infant or primary years if you have the time to devote to it. That is why many people chose to go to state school but aim for private school in later years. It does take a lot of time and running around though if you hope to provide the equivalent to the private school curriculum/extra-curricular.

Homework is NOT necessarily that onerous in the infant years. Year one - a reading book each school night, once a week some spellings and a bit of written homework is typical in our school.

[schoolgatesmum]

@MGMidget - the way you describe how private schools differ from state could actually be a description of my children's state school: extra-curricular, individual attention, specialist teachers, strong on 3Rs, extra help. Yep, we've got all of those!

[MGMidget]

Good for you then! No need to look elsewhere.

[SaharaD]

Based on my own experience I am worried about going the private route. I loved it at primary level but got in with a bad crowd at private secondary (one of the top london girls day schools mentioned in this thread) and met a lot of troubled very wealthy teenagers. There was no involvement or concern from the school and I know my parents were't called when I was absent and my grades started falling. School got the cheque and the rest was up to us as 'independent minded young ladies'. That's fair enough I suppose and I take full responsibility for my bad choices and my plummeting self esteem after going from the top grades in my primary to very average in all subjects in the highly competitive senior school. Obviously there are more of the statistical success stories than us screw ups graduating or they wouldn't still have the amazing reputation that they do. But there was also a large contingent of children of the very wealthy / celebrity and very little supervision from school or parents with access to empty houses, cars and enough money to cover up mistakes. Underage drinking and sex eating disorders and crack ups were not uncommon. Unless things have changed (and they hadn't for my much younger half brothers and sisters except perhaps the nationalities of the super wealthy have changed) I am put off the whole thing.

I'm sure that there are similarly messed up kids in state school but I'm hoping less money less trouble you can get into?! Probably not one of the differences between private and state school that usually makes the list of considerations! My daugher will have a very different upbringing to me as I will be present most of the time. But I still think I will chose state school. As I know from personal experience that while private school can be brilliant it isn't always. And if it isn't always then I can't bear to spend all of our money on it.

[MGMidget]

All these different threads about state and private schools at the moment are making me dizzy!

@schoolgatesmum, I just wanted to add that I didn't say those things you mention aren't available in state schools. Its just that you get a bit more, a bit better in our school. And I have researched and indeed experienced one of the local outstanding primaries. Of course they offer extra help, some individual attention, extra-curricular etc. If you are getting all you would like or need from your current school then these additional differences mentioned (in addition to points made by the BalhamworkingmumFT and Northcote Luvvie) obviously wouldn't matter to you or be worth paying for.