Emmanuel School... Post Reply

[Affluent Parent]

Northcote Luvvie I'd love to read your views on those 'poor kids' whose parents could afford to send them to prep schools but choose to send them to state.

[NorthcoteLuvvie]

I think everyone is getting a little emotive here!

Everyone will know someone who went to a state school and then then got a quadruple first from Harvard whilst inventing a new cure for something or other.

I am trying to help with questions on general trends and, exceptions aside, Indy school kids get better results, go to better unis and earn more.

That's a fact.

Now you might be a little chippy about it and think its wrong (I do) but arguing that black is white doesn't change the general trends.

Personally if you want your child to go to an Indy secondary and you have a reasonably bright child then I think taking them to 11 in state is a risk from what I have seen.

[schoolgatesmum]

I think everyone is getting a little emotive here!

Everyone will know someone who went to a state school and then then got a quadruple first from Harvard whilst inventing a new cure for something or other.

I am trying to help with questions on general trends and, exceptions aside, Indy school kids get better results, go to better unis and earn more.

That's a fact.

Now you might be a little chippy about it and think its wrong (I do) but arguing that black is white doesn't change the general trends.

Personally if you want your child to go to an Indy secondary and you have a reasonably bright child then I think taking them to 11 in state is a risk from what I have seen.

I don't think all indy school kids get better results, go to better unis and earn more (if that's what is important in life!) just as not all state school kids end up on the dole (or whatever it is you think they do instead of going to better unis and earning more). The results from indy schools are better BECAUSE THEY SELECT WHICH CHILDREN THEY TAKE! If they weren't better then it wouldn't say much about the school.

[NorthcoteLuvvie]

No.

That's not what I said.

I said as far as general trends are concerned, not all.

Please calm down and discuss rationally.

And the reason the trends show better reults are not because they select the best, although that will help, but the yawning massive chasm between state and Indy schools results, the fact that the best and most interesting jobs are dominated by Indy kids are small class sizes, more resources, better facilities, an emphasis on achievemment and tons of sport and drama to get the kids happy and motivated in the school day.

One local Indy school has class sizes of 20 each with an assistant AND a floating assistant. So 60 kids had nine staff! If you are a bit bored at school it'll hard to hide!

[ready2pop]

Graveney is a grammAr school not a grammer.

If we are going to have a competitive thread about education, let's try and spell correctly

You'd know better if you'd all been to decent fee paying prep schools

[NorthcoteLuvvie]

Graveney is a grammAr school not a grammer.

If we are going to have a competitive thread about education, let's try and spell correctly

You'd know better if you'd all been to decent fee paying prep schools

I didn't say that.

It wasn't me!

[livegreen]

@ready2pop

You got me....big time!!!

[papinian]

Graveney is not really a grammar school.

I have to say that English secondary state education is a completely irrational and crazy system - mainly because academic selection isn't permitted unless it was permitted at some point in the past (in which case it is allowed to continue).

25% of the pupils in Graveney are admitted based on the results on the Wandsworth test whereas for a conventional grammar school pupils are only admitted if they have passed the 11+ or equivalent (and, within that group, based on the mark achieved).

Graveney is better described as a partially selective school. Unlike the grammar schools, which practised academic selection prior to the introduction of the comprehensive system, selection at Graveney and other partially selective schools only started in the mid-1990s when the Conservatives allowed schools to select a portion of pupils on academic and other grounds. When Labour came to power in 1997 they stopped academic selection but those schools which were already partially selective were allowed to retain their selective arrangements.

More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partially_ ... _(England)

[Tinasan]

"To be even more blunt, if you do not have children in the Indy sector then a lot of the nuances of the different schools and their intakes will be lost on you. "

Patronising, much?

[NORMALMUM]

I would just like to put forward a very personal view, my own experience - no statistics etc.
Just a year ago, I would have disagreed with a lot of what Northcoteluvvie has been saying, from a state school background (husband also). But I have found her information re. the prep school system very insightful - thank you, particulary with events this recent year. My kids (3 of them) have all attended one of the most popular state primarys in the area and I always wondered, if you are lucky enough to get into one of these 'best' pimary schools, why on earth you would chose private over state and spent so much money and would have dimissed the advantages. These schools, have traditionally always managed to get most, if not all, kids who were always going to go private, into the top private schools ( yes, with an hour tutoring each week ) - usually around 50%, which has been the case, as far as I know, for the last 6 years, I have an older child of 18, who got into Allyens, Wimbldon and Clapham and Streatham - but, after much deliberation, we decided we just couldn't afford it, at that time.
But just this year, there has been a massive shift, having recently had a Daughter start at Emmanuel in Sept. She is a bright kid - not a genius, but as bright as her sister - if not brighter. We though she would have had no trouble getting into Allyens etc. and despite getting a super high result in the Wandsworth test and doing really well in entrance exams, the offers she got were from Emmanuel and Steatham and Clapham. Basically, the competion is fierce out there now and I know of parents who could have easily afforded/and wanted to send their children to private schools - who didn't get into ANY private schools and have sent their children to state school. I find more and more 'normal' (not so affluent parents) taking their kids out of these state schools earlier, to avoid the hassle at 11+, to get their kids into the private system ( a lot of what Nothcoteluvvie is saying, is unfortunately true )- if that's what you want.
It is now absolutely wrong to presume, Emmanuel and Clapham and Streatham are 'fall back' schools, their intake is demanding a higher and higher pass rate - too high for most. I find this trend really worrying, I always liked the idea, of a less academic, all-rounded school, we are a Arty family and Emmanuel, in particular, has valued other properties - as important as the academic and I fear this is changing fast and such a school, in future will not exsist. I am just observing, with the experience of having an older child. We sent our eldest to a good state Church school, she has done well, but had personal problems, which I won't go into, but it has been difficult- nothing to do with the school - which is why we sent our second private, to try to make it as easy/simple as pos - no guantees, I know....
My post isn't to scare monger, but to hopefully put forward a different perspective.... is your child a true academic/genius ? - looking to the city/ Eton/oxbridge - at this point in time, I would advise getting them into the private sector as soon as pos. to get them into one of the top private schools - the competiton is crazy. Do you want all all-rounded balanced education, between academic and the Arts/ Music/sports and social ?- then get them into the best state or private school you possibily can - they will do well, but I do fear all these schools are going down the same academic route, blame it on worldwide pressure on competing with China etc.- who knows...So much pressure is placed on teenagers at the moment and with the benefit of hindsight, I would not have focused so much on the academic with my eldest, even though she was very bright, the most important thing for them,is to be happy and well rounded. Don't place too much importance on the academic, a bright child will find their way. I know friends with children of the same abilitly as my eldest who got their kids into City Girls etc. ( 6 years ago - unlikely they would get in now) they are suffering from being the less able in the class- leading to low self esteem, amongst other, more serious problems. Be as realistic for your child as possible,in my experience, it is better for them to feel 'on top' at a less academic school. I suppose my point is; the academic bar, is being raised all the time, to almost unrealistic levels and lots of teenagers just aren't coping, where will this all end? Just make sure your child is happy and well rounded, then you will have absolutely have done your best for them. Please do not pick me up for any grammer errors, I am state school educated- remember!

[Affluent Parent]

I'm really pro state school and reading all these Private v State posts has only strengthened my view.

Here are some of the reasons why we haven't gone down the 'Indy' route for our kids for primary and don't intend to for secondary either.

1) Some people whose kids go to independent schools call them 'Indy' schools.
2) I don't want my children's life to be all about passing the next exam. Surely this isn't what childhood should be about.
3) Nurturing an inquisitive mind and being encouraged to think outside the box as well as for oneself are surely more important than being coached to pass exams and being told what the 'right thing' to say in an interview is.
4) I want my kids to grow up being socially aware and not having a blinkered view or a 'view from above'.
5) I want them to be able to go to local schools so that they can attend the same school as the other kids in their community and so that they don't have to waste precious hours commuting (there's plenty of time for that later in life).
6) I have confidence in my children's ability to thrive at our local state schools and make the most of the fantastic education that is offered.

I'm not saying that all fee paying schools are the same. I did once hear of a private school parent saying that 'sending your children to Hornsby House was like paying for your children to go to state school'!! It sounds exactly like the kind of private school I'd want to send my children to if I had to.

[NorthcoteLuvvie]

Firstly, thanks to Normal mum for the corroboration.

I'm really pro state school and reading all these Private v State posts has only strengthened my view.

Here are some of the reasons why we haven't gone down the 'Indy' route for our kids for primary and don't intend to for secondary either.

1) Some people whose kids go to independent schools call them 'Indy' schools.
2) I don't want my children's life to be all about passing the next exam. Surely this isn't what childhood should be about.
3) Nurturing an inquisitive mind and being encouraged to think outside the box as well as for oneself are surely more important than being coached to pass exams and being told what the 'right thing' to say in an interview is.
4) I want my kids to grow up being socially aware and not having a blinkered view or a 'view from above'.
5) I want them to be able to go to local schools so that they can attend the same school as the other kids in their community and so that they don't have to waste precious hours commuting (there's plenty of time for that later in life).
6) I have confidence in my children's ability to thrive at our local state schools and make the most of the fantastic education that is offered.

I'm not saying that all fee paying schools are the same. I did once hear of a private school parent saying that 'sending your children to Hornsby House was like paying for your children to go to state school'!! It sounds exactly like the kind of private school I'd want to send my children to if I had to.

I'll try and reply to your comments in order

1. Cheap dig but hey, its ironic that the cheap digs in this thread are from the people championing state (the condescending comment one was another) and showing that the chips on their shoulders are affecting their manners.

For those that are being so rude can you not see the irony that you're claiming to uphold values like "inclusive" and "integration" whilst being unpleasant and rude in a conversation where the other poster is trying to help?

Quite unbelievable.

If I made sweeping assumptions about the way you speak or write and claimed that this was a reason not to send my kids to your kids school can you imagine the uproar?

What you don't realise is that they'll be a whole heap of Indy parents who are as bigoted as you nodding their heads as they read this thread and saying to their wives/hubbies "look darling, that's why little Tarquin can't go to Bolingbroke these state parents are so fighty and rude!"

2. For children of a certain age it is almost ALL about passing exams. Not for everyone and at every stage in their life but for almost *everyone* at *some* stage in their life. It may be that this is a fixation of the indy sector but maybe, just maybe, that's why they are more successful. And I'd like to define success. It's not about money but about having access to interesting and challenging career choices and feeling valued and enjoying your work and from what I've seen that is heavily influenced by exams that give you choices.

3. We do that to. In fact with 9 staff for 60 kids in reception, budgets for trips and walks and more resources and equipment than the Tardis we actually do this pretty well.

4. A good Indy school will have a well developed bursary system. Not all are good but I would never recommend anyone eats in a **** restaurant and I don't recommend you send your kids to a **** school. JAGS have their brightest kids teaching troubled state kids how to read at weekends, I reckon they probably have more access to a wide range of society than most teenagers.

5. Agree this can be an issue but the flipside there is a massive work ethic instilled young. Kids often leave the house early and come back late. That's not a bad habit.

6. I am sure they'll be brilliant.

So lets all calm down, remember our manners and also remember that it's about choices.

[Affluent Parent]

Ok - the indy gag was a cheap one and I apologise for that but don't accuse me of having a chip on my shoulder. I don't. Why would I? My children are getting a brilliant education and it's free.

[Tinasan]

Northcote - look, I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I do have manners. And I do find some of some of your comments (not understanding nuances blah blah) incredibly patronising. I'm not some ill-informed oik who thinks all public schools were created equal. I'm well aware of the how all the popular/local private (and state) schools are ranked in terms of academic competitiveness/popularity. To be honest, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a local parent who is not. However, this doesn't mean that we all come to the same conclusions as you do about the best approach to education.

I DO agree with you that it is going to be harder for state school kids to get into 'top' private schools, just as it is going to be for the public school kids. There has been a big baby boom, and that will undoubtedly have an affect on school destinations. Already, we can see this is making schools that were less sought after before, more popular. I guess I'm fine with this though - I will be happy if my (very bright but not genius level) children end up somewhere they can do well but do not feel unbearable pressure. I completely agree with Normalmum's philosophy:

"is your child a true academic/genius ? - looking to the city/ Eton/oxbridge - at this point in time, I would advise getting them into the private sector as soon as pos. to get them into one of the top private schools - the competiton is crazy. Do you want all-rounded balanced education, between academic and the Arts/ Music/sports and social ?- then get them into the best state or private school you possibily can .......Be as realistic for your child as possible,in my experience, it is better for them to feel 'on top' at a less academic school. I suppose my point is; the academic bar, is being raised all the time, to almost unrealistic levels and lots of teenagers just aren't coping, where will this all end? Just make sure your child is happy and well rounded, then you will have absolutely have done your best for them."

[NorthcoteLuvvie]

Thanks for the apology Affluent Parent, accepted.

Northcote - look, I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I do have manners. And I do find some of some of your comments (not understanding nuances blah blah) incredibly patronising. I'm not some ill-informed oik who thinks all public schools were created equal. I'm well aware of the how all the popular/local private (and state) schools are ranked in terms of academic competitiveness/popularity. To be honest, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a local parent who is not.

Indy schools are an area that are incredibly emotive. I get that and I think, for the record, that they're elitist and unfair. But they are there and I'll give my children every advantage that I can. We all try to do that whether by paying for the school, or paying for the house in the right catchment area etc etc.

I won't even get into people who criticise parents for spending hard earned cash to pay for a decent private education but then buy a house for a million quid that gets them into a middle class pocket of like-minded six figure earning families and somehow think they're being "mainstream".

Tinasan, if you were to ask a friend who is a chess nut about playing competitive chess you wouldn't call them condescending if they said "to an outsider the culture of chess competitions is confusing..." but again and again people who don't live, work or pay for Indy education dole out rudeness and poor manners because they think it's OK to have a go at people who do pay for it.