Next door vegan neighbours objecting to us barbecuing Post Reply

[Reggiebe]

Again with the strawman comparisons. It is not the same AT ALL as a neighbour smoking cannabis outside, nor is it remotely comparable to someone burning rubbish.

OP, as there’s a lot of hand-wringing here, the official guidance only states to position the grill so the smoke doesn’t go into a neighbours house if thats possible (with the consideration that there may be neighbours on numerous sides and this may be inevitable) and not to grill if the neighbours washing is out. If they insist on pursuing their complaint and going to your local council, they can investigate complaints about smoke from residential premises that cause a statutory nuisance. If the problem is still not resolved to their satisfaction, they can raise it with their local environmental health officer at the council.

The council will look at the amount of smoke caused, how frequent the barbecuing is, how long it lasts and if the activity is unreasonable. Smoke caused by cooking is very unlikely to be a statutory nuisance. For reference “excessive” use is commonly thought of as “all day, every day”, so I think they wouldn’t really have a leg to stand on if they’re complaining about some weeknight dinners.

[tooposhtopush]

I'm following this with interest and have to say I did struggle with the comparisons with burning rubbish or smoking cannabis, not because I know about these things but as one is illegal and the other a real nuisance I'd have thought they were different.

I guess that means a hog roast is out the question though although one tactic might be to dig a fire pit and roast an ox and then going back to a small BBQ would seem nothing in comparison.

Apologies, I'm being flippant but this does seem to be quite intractable.

[TwinkleTootsies]

Hi meatandveg,Sounds like you are trying to think of a solution already, so I don’t want to drop another critical post on you, but just wanted to point out, contrary to some opinions posted above, there’s no such thing as the legal right to “use your house and garden as you wish”. You can generally use them as you wish - until you start impacting other people’s right to enjoy their own house or garden - and services like planning enforcement or environmental health then have a remit to protect these rights where applicable.  

If your new neighbours are already slamming doors and making comments, it’s not a big stretch to imagine that they end up compiling info to raise a case with environmental health, particularly once they realise this is year-round and not just high summer. They could argue that your outdoor kitchen has effectively become your main kitchen, and so should follow the spirit of the laws that apply to internal kitchen venting and flues (which have restrictions on positioning so smells/smoke don’t impact neighbouring properties). I think it’s unlikely that they would win a case unless they could prove an ongoing smoke problem, but it could all get nasty. 

Personally I feel that being a considerate neighbour means avoiding/stopping things that would adversely affect others, even if they’re perfectly legal. So I wouldn’t have put a barbecue right up against a boundary nearest the house in the first place. But as yours is already there, I guess the best option is to ask to talk it through over a drink and see if you can reach a compromise? Living next to neighbours you’ve fallen out with isn’t great, whether the law is on your side or not.

[tooposhtopush]

I find this fascinating.

The comment above

there’s no such thing as the legal right to “use your house and garden as you wish”. You can generally use them as you wish - until you start impacting other people’s right to enjoy their own house or garden - and services like planning enforcement or environmental health then have a remit to protect these rights where applicable.

Surely that can’t be right?

I mean I get it that if the OP was having loud parties or running a business from the garden then that would be grounds for action but grilling a steak three times a week would surely be hard to justify as an anti-social?

I understand that the vegans might find it very antisocial but wouldn’t the noise equivalent be “I object to the type of music you are playing” not that “you are playing the music too loud?”

The former seems a weak argument, the latter not at all.

[atbattersea]

Surely that can’t be right?

And in the very next line:

I mean I get it that if the OP was having loud parties or running a business from the garden then that would be grounds for action but grilling a steak three times a week would surely be hard to justify as an anti-social? 

The first problem you have is that you negate your own argument. Surely you can do what you like, oh, no, course you can't.

The second problem you are having is that you are not putting yourself in the shoes of the person on the receiving end. If it was "just cooking a steak", then the OP would just cook it in their kitchen. In fact, what they are doing is lighting a fire in their back garden, and probably doing a pretty good job at producing as much smoke as possible.

Lighting the barbecue usually involves an accelerant, that has its own set of nuisance problems, and then a load of smoke, accompanied by the cooking odours. This is nothing like cooking in your own kitchen - for a start you'd run out of the house if you had that much smoke in it.

Rather than thinking about the freedom of the OP to do whatever they like, think about the poor complainant, who isn't able to "do whatever they like" - ie just have a nice quiet, smoke free life.

Thre are all kinds of parallels you would not stand: a neighbour with a continuously barking dog, a crowing rooster, a naked sunbather, Motorhead in the basement… the snorer, the enthusiastic sexual intercourse. There's another thread on this very site attempting to find out if the downstairs café has removed the soundproofing…

It is much easier to block out sound than it is to block out smells.

OP, you are the nuisance, think about how you remove the nuisance, not how you can continue doing what you are doing.

[meatandveg]

Many thanks to everyone for taking time to send me such detailed replies. It's very helpful to hear such polarised views.

Not sure if this helps but I believe it is the smell of the food that they object too as they are vegan. They haven't mentioned the
smoke. It is a gas barbecue so there aren't any accelerants and we try to keep the lid down as much as possible. I would say that we are very considerate neighbours in most other ways, I just hadn't expected to find myself in this sticky situation for cooking a regular supper.

I will invite them over for a plant based barbecue, thanks Dudette, and see if that helps at all.

Many thanks again for all of your suggestions

[AnnaTooting]

It's a difficult issue. My initial instinct was that they were being highly unreasonable, but then I remembered what my clothes smell like after a BBQ and how furious I would be if I had to endure that kind of a smell WITHOUT the pleasure of a meal afterwards. The fact of the matter is, BBQ was a style of cooking invented for the great outdoors with nothing but wilderness (or at least a lot of land) around. You yourself admit you don't like the smell in your own kitchen and it seems like you have place it in a way that prevents the smell from going inside your home. Just because it is perfectly placed in your garden for your convenience doesn't mean that's the way it should be if you are upsetting your neighbours. Move it as far away from their house as possible and send them a text before you start so that they can close their windows ahead of time. 

[TFP]

It seems to me that the neighbours made a tactical error in citing their veganism as the reason for objecting to the BBQ, by doing this it can be argued that they're the 'unusual' ones, and that the problem is theirs.

Surely at least as significant is the fact that they're the only neighbour who are directly next to the outdoor grill, and surely, at least in this climate and with this style of housing, cooking outside every day is far more unusual than veganism?

[crashbang]

I've been reading this thread with much interest and to be honest siding with the OP and then their vegan neighbour in turn. And i think that is the upshot. It isn't really one person or the other's fault.

It's the OP's garden. She did the right thing at the right time and asked the preceding neighbours about the bbq. It is her space and she isn't breaking any laws.

I thinking agreeing that buying the suggested air purifier would be an olive branch and suggesting that she will text ahead of cooking so that they can make plans their side of the fence would be helpful. Possibly finding out which are the most offensive smells so that they don't cook those foods too repetitively would be kind?

It is a tricky one but I don't think that the OP is at fault here?

Good luck sorting it and for being thoughtful enough to post to get feedback.

 

[muddyboots]

There are two separate issues I think.

1) is it OK to object to a neighbour bbq-ing simply because it’s meat being cooked.
2) what level of barbecuing is acceptable?

IMO, it’s unacceptable to object to a neighbour cooking meat from an ethical point of view. That is a free choice and any vegan who cannot stand the prospect of this happening needs to adjust their expectations or where they live.

Regarding frequency of cooking on a bbq, I think it’s normally a summer activity and certainly not an everyday occurrence.

When our neighbours use theirs I have to close my children’s windows at the back or their rooms will stink with smoke.
I totally accept this and we also occasionally use the bbq in the summer season.

This is all normal, however, if our neighbour started smoking out my house several times a week all year round then that falls into inconsiderate behaviour to me.

[judithhoward]

Interesting series of responses to this one!  It stirkes me that the selfish ones are the barbequers, not the neighbours.   No-one has to cook outdoors, especially as they no doubt have a nice posh kitchen indoors with all the latest gizmos!   Why not cook indoors and just take the food outside for a picnic, as we used to do in my childhood?  

The trouble is that  the smell cannot be contained within the confines of the BBQers' garden, and with our small London gardens, you are bound to affect neighbours over quite a large area.  (The BBQ craze seems to have come over from Australia, but the big difference there is the far greater space, allowing greater distance between houses. )  The neighbours have every right to enjoy the summer with their windows open for some fresh air - and maybe hang out their washing to dry in the open, which benefits the planet instead of using a tumble drier.  The trouble with BBQ smoke is not just the smell but the grease, and if that gets into your clean washing, you'll have to do all your laundry again.  

I must admit I was shocked at the attitude of "entitlement" shown in some of the replies in support of BBQs. Surely no-one has the right to ruin neighbours' summer with this unnecessary  activity?

[FrankJ]

Can you please give me an idea of where you live so i make sure never to live close to your neighbour? In my view, being able to BBQ is a huge upside to owning a home compared to a flat. Tell them it could be worse, you could get a smoker with cooking cycles of up to 6-8 hours.

[George1953]

It's not music or anything that might disturb others. That's why OP has a piece on land on it's possible to grill and do whatever you want. If OP grilled vegetables and fruit then that's fine? No wonder vegans are liked less and less since they insist on bothering other meat eaters that they're vegans and we have to change our diet habits...

[Bogbrush]

This sounds so awful and stressful for you. I have been racking my brains for a solution, but it is difficult without seeing a plan of your garden and your neighbours, and the location of doors and windows.

If the smell of cooking meat inside your house bothers you I wondered if your house is open plan? If so it might be worth adding a door or sectioning it off, or at least the cooking part, from the rest of the house so that the smells are contained. (That's probably one of the reasons these houses were originally built with more separate rooms). We put in a door between the back of our house and our hall which does exactly this job.

A stud wall is not structural and should not cost too much. Then you can just close the door on that cooking area - let's call it a 'kitchen' - and keep the barbecue for social occasions, say once or twice a week in the summer months.

[nvmof3]

What about having some sort of chimney or extractor fan added to your built in BBQ area that could direct the smoke up and away from your neighbours?