Difference between private and state Post Reply

[broodje]

Thomas's now have a full list of all leavers for all branches. So does Finton (I think both with offers and places chosen). Surprisingly, Horsnby doesn't! Just a generic list of secondary schools overall.
Broomwood/Northcote used to have one, but not sure if still do given bulk of website is password protected now. But 2/3 (at least) boarding schools at 13+.
Not sure about the rest.

[ready2pop]

Almost all the desitination info is on the school's websites Supergirl

But here's my summary of the ones around Clapham based on looking for my son (so focusing on where the boys go only)


Thomas Clapham - split about 2/3 to day schools and 1/3 boarding. Vast majority to Dulwich (twice as many as to any other school based on most recent figures) next popular Emanuel, then Whitgift and KCS. Most boarders go to Tonbridge or Bradfield plus a smattering to Eton and Harrow

Northcote lodge - huge majority go on to boarding schools. Most to Bradfield, Eton, Harrow or Sherborne with a few to Winchester, Bryanston, Wellington. If going to day schools then it tends to be to Dulwich, KCS or Westmister

Eaton House - about 2/3 go on to board, 1/3 to day schools. Of boarders twice as many to Charterhouse as anywhere else then others split across Eton, Harrow, Bradfield and Winchester. Day boys go to Alleyn's, Dulwich, City, KCS or Emanuel

Finton - only goes up to 11 so almost all boys leave at 8 and go to either Northcote, Thomas, Dulwich, DPL

Hornsby - ends at 11 so none to boarding schools. Doesn't publish detailed figures but says "children go on to Dulwich College, Allyens, JAGS, Whitgift, Streatham & Clapham High School and Emanuel"

Now before anyone screams at me, those summaries are based on the most recent publicly available figures for the schools.

[ready2pop]

PS It also seems to change over time as schools become more or less fashionable. So with Northcote (which publishes figures for the last 10 years) Charterhouse and Marlborough used to be very popular destinations but seem to have dropped off (I'm assuming it is that rather than that the boys just don't get in their any more?)

[BTC27]

So those of you that say that tutoring is inevitable whether you go public or private route, do you mean to say that it really does not matter which school you choose, as you will get a private tutor anyway?

I am really undecided on this topic... OH is worried about the lack of discipline at state schools.

[Mistletoe]

Yes but you have to remember we are in a weird bubble round here.

There is a massive baby boom pushing through at the moment, there are not enough secondary schools and so it's become insanely competitive even for a relatively "normal" school.

Everyone is tutored.

Its depressing!

[broodje]

Yes, you will need a tutor or DIY - doesn't matter which if you are capable, can't rely on school alone, even if it's a private one. I personally prefer DIY simply because I know exactly what needs to be done for my child and I am actually better than a tutor and much more obsessive about each school's requirements, exam formats, etc

BUT I don't have the time so I do Maths/Reasoning myself but hire one for English. BTW, it took me 3 agencies and 2 "so so" tutors before I found my current, absolutely brilliant one. So don't be shy of getting rid of tutors who don't do a good job.

Private schools do have small classes and different sets, but from what I've seen top sets go faster, not deeper so no use for trickier parts of entrance exams. St Paul's papers don't ask you to have level 6 in maths, but want you to be excellent at problem solving - even at top sets it's a very small part. May be there are private schools who do extension on a regular basis and do lots of maths/maths puzzles of "Primary Maths Challenge", St.Paul's, trickier ones from North London consortium, Dulwich etc. Ours doesn't. Hence, you or tutor has to do it.

Reasoning is one lesson per week and not always in he right format - so you have to use a tutor or DIY. Of course, states schools don't do it at all, but 1 hour a week is nothing!

Private has nice touches like sports and games several times a week, playing matches, 10+ different orchestras, inter-house competition, debates, Latin from Yr 5/6, strict behaviour policies, emphasis on manners, eating together with older pupils and teachers at lunches will proper cutlery and cups for table manners, etc. Is it worth £15,000? Yes, if you have it, if you have to make huge sacrifices, I wouldn't! Also depends on whether the primary you are likely to get is OK. My friend's kid came back from a highly coveted school in Wimbledon the other day (Yr4) with a very enriched vocabulary - the word faggot was the mildest on the list. He was asking his mother what all those words meant as he overheard two boys calling each other that (and the rest) during a fight. Don't have to deal with it at our school! Is it worth £15k?

[supergirl]

@broodje: since we are talking openly about all the pluses and minuses, may i ask how did you know the first 2 tutors were not good enough? How did you select them, what was the trigger that made you think there were not up to scratch?
I come from a very different system and i must say i am at lost... I thought i had a few years to relax since primary was sorted but guess what... I was wrong
Many thanks. S

[ready2pop]

If all the kids have to be tutored to get in to their chosen schools what happens when they get there? Do you have to keep the tutoring going to keep them at the right level (presumably not possible if you go down the boarding route)? Or do they all drop back once they are in IFYSWIM?

Mine are at prep schools but my worry about getting them tutors would be that I would be inadvertently setting them up to fail at the next school.

It's a way off for us yet but I think I'd prefer them to go to somewhere the right level for their natural abilities.

I appreciate that if you are in a state school the tutoring is mainly needed to get the child familiar with the exam format (be it 7+, 11+, common entrance) but the preps will be doing that with them anyway.

[supergirl]

That is exactly my feeling ready2pop, but i want my kids to have a fair game... So if all the kids are tutored and ours are not it is not fair game. Or is it? I zm missing a point?

[broodje]

Well, I don't buy the concept that if you tutor them to get in, you need to keep up or that you are setting them up for failure. Everybody tutors to get in, relatively few slip through the net that need to keep up the tutoring all the way through.
I have drilled both teachers and students on this topic on all open days - asking countless people about pressure/people not coping/not time for anything else/dropping out, etc. The answer I got is that it happens but as an exception not the rule.
I didn't see oppressed, overtutored kids, with haunted eyes, full of fear of failure in any of the schools I visited, JAGS, Alleyn's, KGS, St.Paul's among more academic ones. Bright, bushy tailed, enthusiastic kids.
ALL were tutored. I have some very close colleagues with children in St.Paul's: 2x 3 girls in SPSG (so 6 girls altogether) and 1 with a boy in St Paul's boys and a girl in St Paul's girls. ALL 7 girls went to Bute House and ALL were tutored before entrance exams. They are thriving and enjoying it! Not a representative sample but good enough for me. My colleague actually told me not to be shy about getting a tutor - everybody does it.

So if the kids are bright a priori, why tutor? Well, because you expect a 10 year old to perform on the day for 3-4 hours on a paper that they've never seen before (JAGS and Alleyn's don't release past papers). Will a bright kid solve a sequences problem in an exam that he's never seen before, under time pressure? I doubt it. Will he/she solve it around kitchen table when presented with it as a puzzle with no time pressure? Absolutely! So am I going to teach my kid how to solve sequences problems before exams? Absolutely! Ditto for probability theory, number puzzles, trickier time problems, etc. Would they see these types of problems at a private school? Yes, once or twice in context of a rushed class discussion/mock exam. Not enough for me. Does it mean they are not bright enough to study at Alleyn's or JAGS or Dulwich? I don't think so. Do you expect a bright 10-11 year old to know how short sentences help build tension because they make you pause when you want to keep reading to find out how the situation will be resolved. They give the reader a jolt and create drama, blah-blah-blah. Have a look at GCSE requirements - it's all there. And this is a level of literary analysis for 11+. I am certainly not going to rely on my child remembering it all from one-two lessons at school. I am going to read together children's books and analyze the hell out of them on alliteration, personification, repetition, contrast, rhetorical questions, etc. Perhaps, some schools do all of that in sufficient volume, ours doesn't.

[broodje]

Supergirl, with regards to how you tell what a good tutor is, you'll know. First, you need to be very specific with the agency who you need - on my 3rd one, I requested someone who has a degree in English, is a teacher in a selective secondary school in lower year groups (year 7/8), has experience in setting/marking entrance exams etc. For the first 2, I haven't even seen CVs- the agencies told me "it's not our practice to send out CVs". To cut a long story short, I got Head of English for Lower School at a very selective West London school who marks their school's entrance exams (and helps set them!). Probably wouldn't be appropriate for anyone younger than Yr5 though.

Why were the other two not good? They didn't have a "battle plan" - they just did papers together, going through questions, one paper after the others. Without actually teaching the techniques, creating frameworks, drilling down on weak points, etc. It was more of the same.

This one immediately created a structure lesson plan after first 3 sessions. Like, first we are going to expand vocabulary to describing feelings/mood/atmosphere since it's insufficient. So they did the whole calm-tranquil-serene-peaceful-relaxed etc for all major feelings/moods, etc.

Then they focused on character - how to create, analyze in comprehension, etc. Expanded vocabulary for personality descriptions. Signs of different states, e.g. fist clenched, jaws twisted, teeth gnashing,etc. They actually did only selected questions from comprehension papers on those topics.

Then descriptive writing, sentence structure, etc. Connective to introduce evidence and explanation in a comprehension exercise, etc.

So it was actually very structured, with materials fully prepared, full analysis on how it went - debrief tips and what to learn, etc.

I think you get the gist. You'll know when you have one, and also when you don't. In case of the latter, don't keep letting them "have a go", just switch.

[ready2pop]

Broodje - I take your point.

That said I think the tutoring is very much a London thing amd the big public schools intakes are nationwide so not all kids are tutored.

Incidentally, yes I would expect an 11yr old, whether state or privately educated to be at the level of english comprehension you mention. I did and had no tutoring and was at a state school and my not quite 6yr old comes close now (difference is he can explain it verbally but is not yet a fluent enough writer to get it down on paper - but by 11?).

I have a relative who is head of a top London prep school that feeds st Pauls etc... who told me recently when I asked for her thoughts on it that she thought we London parents had all 'gone quite mad' and are now ruled by an 'entirely self-perpetuating hysteria'

[schoolgatesmum]

I am finding this discussion more and more depressing. Is it just me?

[BTC27]

Yup.

But read Ready2Pop's last sentence. I think therein lies the crux.

[ready2pop]

Also the whole point of the tests is that they are designed to test natural ability rather than learnt knowledge hence the problem solving, comprehension etc...

So yes, I still think a bright child shouldn't need coaching.