Do local faith schools demand money from parents? Post Reply

[Cloud]

And just to add - it is also quite hard for faith schools to raise funds through sponsorship from companies, community groups etc other than the church. I know from experience - I hit a brick wall quite a few times because the religious link disqualifies them from a lot of types of funding!

I'm not trying to justify any schools seeking compulsory donations (which I believe is wrong), just trying to explain why some faith schools do need to do more fundraising from parents than others might.

[Scottov]

If church schools, for example, practised what they preached they would have more poor pupils than surrounding schools. They do not and in fact nearly always have lower FSM than surrounding schools. Their selection criteria often puts off poorer families / less well educated families who can be unaware of criteria till too late. Is this what Jesus would have wanted?

I'm not sure how you arrived at this bespoke objective, but setting that aside do you have evidence for these claims?

Further to add to the point about faith schools doing better academically. A recent study by COE said all of its higher academic scores could be put solely down to fact they had less poorer pupils.

could you provide a link to this study?

[livegreen]

A simple search on Google
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 73566.html

A better summary in the Guardian but cannot paste link - simply search "faith schools intake results"

Also Ofsted concluded in its report on Faith school that their perceived better results were attributable to their skewed intake.
Selective schools get better results than non selective schools is a fact and the reason Faith schools want to remain selective.

All of these reports are easy to find.

I'm yet to see the response of the Churches that they believe they are not selective....,

[Scottov]

A simple search on Google
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 73566.html

A better summary in the Guardian but cannot paste link - simply search "faith schools intake results"

Also Ofsted concluded in its report on Faith school that their perceived better results were attributable to their skewed intake.
Selective schools get better results than non selective schools is a fact and the reason Faith schools want to remain selective.

All of these reports are easy to find.

I'm yet to see the response of the Churches that they believe they are not selective....,

right...

So you post an article based on a study by the "British Humanist Society" where even that doesn't say what you claimed it did...

perhaps stick to facts and evidence next time?

[actuallyadad]

@Scottov this may be an emotive topic, but no need to be rude. People may have different views to you but please try and keep it civil

[waitingforgodot]

Ok Chutneymaniac this has gone a bit weird and personal. I'm not engaging in a public debate with a stranger about my personal religious views. It's not about me "not caring about" a particular religion. This isn't the forum to deal with the merits of Catholicism or the ensuing arguments around contraceptives, gay marriage, female equality and how pedophile priests should be dealt with. And in any event, my kids are older and go to private schools. So it's not about me.

I'm just saying: I think in principle state school places, like other state resources (medical, welfare etc etc), should not be allocated based on religious belief. That is all!

Dear Actuallyadad,

You say it all yourself when you find talking about religion weird. If you think my comments are weird you have not debated much in your life It seems to me it is your way of trying to shut someone up. Try something else...

[waitingforgodot]

@Scottov this may be an emotive topic, but no need to be rude. People may have different views to you but please try and keep it civil

Dear Actuallyadad,

I would beg you to stop calling people that dont agree with you rude or weird and lecturing them on how to keep things civil and apply that to yourself

Cheers

[waitingforgodot]

A simple search on Google
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 73566.html

A better summary in the Guardian but cannot paste link - simply search "faith schools intake results"

Also Ofsted concluded in its report on Faith school that their perceived better results were attributable to their skewed intake.
Selective schools get better results than non selective schools is a fact and the reason Faith schools want to remain selective.

All of these reports are easy to find.

I'm yet to see the response of the Churches that they believe they are not selective....,

Dear livegreen,

Do you understand the meaning of selective? Catholic schools are non selective. EVERY CATHOLIC will get in if they go to Mass. There is not interview or IQ test for the child. They dont have to be clever or rich. It is measured by distance and mass attendance.

Let's talk about the charity status of many private schools which do test the IQ of their kids. Many invite the parents of the pupils that dont perform to leave, after having tested the child at 4 and taken their money for years!!

I agree for private schools to have some tax reliefs as the parents have paid taxes for their kids' education that they dont utilise in the state system. However, it is no wonder they get to the top universities if they get rid of all the children that are not straight As. I dont see much added value there or great teaching, just artificial selection...

[Ippyevie]

Just wow. I'm sitting on the fence here and have been considering going to masses for quite a while to get my child in a Catholic church nearby. We even consider converting. I have to say it's pretty daunting to say the least when I see the responses from Chutneymaniac and Scottov to a perfectly valid question that actuallyadad had posted.

Now so I really want to send my child to a place where a fair question can't even be raised without being verbally aggravated? Perhaps this topic is really too emotive.

[waitingforgodot]

Just wow. I'm sitting on the fence here and have been considering going to masses for quite a while to get my child in a Catholic church nearby. We even consider converting. I have to say it's pretty daunting to say the least when I see the responses from Chutneymaniac and Scottov to a perfectly valid question that actuallyadad had posted.

Now so I really want to send my child to a place where a fair question can't even be raised without being verbally aggravated? Perhaps this topic is really too emotive.

Dear Ippyevie,

Do not let my comments or any others influence your faith. If your faith is important to you it should not matter what we say. Talk to your priest, he will find much better words than us. We are probably feeling attacked for no reason...

And if you think, like actuallyadad that the admission criteria of faith schools is unfair then you probably should not convert just to get your child in.

All the best

[papinian]

I'm sitting on the fence here and have been considering going to masses for quite a while to get my child in a Catholic church nearby. We even consider converting.

I'm confused. Are you Catholic but just upping your practice, i.e. going to Mass or are you not Catholic at all. If you're not Catholic then you are welcome to attend Mass but that won't give your child any priority in being admitted to school. I don't think converting to Catholicism just to get your child admitted to a local school is a good idea - it's certainly not an easy option.

I know three Catholic schools in this area well and I have NEVER heard of a compulsory or regular requirement to donate to a fund.

Similarly, I have never heard of anything that is not expressly described as a voluntary contribution.

To those who are opposed to faith schools, I point out that the result will be schools that have no infuences other than the state / local authority (used to be local authority in 70s and 80s but since late 90s education has been subject to more and more centralisation). Frankly, the more limited the state control of education the better. You may not remember the loony Labour Inner London Education Authority of the 70s and 80s but I certainly do, including the ruination of many of this area's schools (e.g. Bec School in Upper Tooting), the exodus to independent schools of those who could afford them, and the damage done to the educational prospects of the rest. The schools that survived that era best were the faith schools because they were less subject to the control.

Similarly, now, in an era when the Education Secretary is trying to dictate to the last degree everything that should or should not be said in school (see story in Sunday newspapers re 14 year old boy being interviewed by the police for wearing a Free Palestine badge to school) it is in the faith schools that statist control is most resisted.

[waitingforgodot]

Dear Ippyevie,

Apologies if we were verbally aggravating but if you read the post properly you will find actuallyadad was not just asking a fair question. This are some of his also aggravating comments:

"I imagine it can't hurt to make a donation, it's all a game of making friends with the vicar/governors etc."

"By the way I think all religious state schools should be abolished."

When I suggested he converted, like you are considering, his answer was:
"Obviously you could just lie and pretend to be a particular religion and show up at church/temple/synagogue every Sunday, but you shouldn't have to. That sounds like the approach @Chutneymanic suggests which seems to make light of the religions faith people want to protect."

At the beginning he said: "Let's not stifle people posting things which are bit thought provoking by making those kind of accusations, or else this site becomes very dull. (Remember this isn't a religious site - free thinking is allowed!)"

But when I gave him a bit of my free thinking:
"Ok Chutneymaniac this has gone a bit weird and personal. I'm not engaging in a public debate with a stranger about my personal religious views."

Regarding his fair and valid question he said things like:
"It's unfair because state resources, paid for by all, are not available to all." "Why should such a small minority get exclusive resources, facilities and opportunities funded by the state when there is such pressure on school places? Do Catholics pay more tax?"
Which are simply not true and I think we have left clear now.

And of course after all this he had the cheek of saying: "this may be an emotive topic, but no need to be rude. People may have different views to you but please try and keep it civil" when Scottov asked livegreen "to stick to facts and evidence next time". She may have been a bit harsh but we do get a lot of biased statistics. Plus I think we all have been harsh at time, maybe by trying to stop the blog becoming dull

Again, my apologies and all the best

[Ippyevie]

I'm confused. Are you Catholic but just upping your practice, i.e. going to Mass or are you not Catholic at all. If you're not Catholic then you are welcome to attend Mass but that won't give your child any priority in being admitted to school. I don't think converting to Catholicism just to get your child admitted to a local school is a good idea - it's certainly not an easy option.

I'm Protestant. But I don't go to church every Sunday. I mean Protestant is also Chistian, no? Afterall, we worship the same God? What's the rule for Protestants? Some of the people I know who are not Catholics went to church to try to gain a place for a child in faith school though. And it worked.

[papinian]

I'm confused. Are you Catholic but just upping your practice, i.e. going to Mass or are you not Catholic at all. If you're not Catholic then you are welcome to attend Mass but that won't give your child any priority in being admitted to school. I don't think converting to Catholicism just to get your child admitted to a local school is a good idea - it's certainly not an easy option.

I'm Protestant. But I don't go to church every Sunday. I mean Protestant is also Chistian, no? Afterall, we worship the same God? What's the rule for Protestants? Some of the people I know who are not Catholics went to church to try to gain a place for a child in faith school though. And it worked.

You're conflating faith schools and Catholic faith schools. Catholic schools give priority to Catholics ahead of other Christians. The usual priority is Catholic - Orthodox - Protestant. However, going to Mass as a Protestant won't get your child any higher priority than a Protestant who doesn't go to Mass. In fact, a Protestant who is a regular worshiper in a local Anglican / Methodist / Baptist / etc church may end up having a higher priority. In any case, most local Catholic schools don't even have enough places for the Catholics that apply, never mind anyone else.

In order for your child to get priority as a Catholic your child will need to be baptised and admitted to the Catholic faith. Unless there are exceptional circumstances, e.g. non-Catholic widow raising a child Catholic where Catholic parent is deceased, one of the parents will also need to be a Catholic.

As regards worshiping the same God, Muslims and Jews are in the same boat as Christians in that regard!

As regards converting, my wife has a friend whose parents converted from Anglicanism to Catholicism when their children were pre-school age. My wife says it was so their children could go to the local Catholic schools. 35 years later my wife's friend and her parents are now known as some of the most devout Catholics in their small town. Sometimes God works in mysterious ways.

[waitingforgodot]

If you search on google the admission policy for your prospective school you will see the criteria. Practising Christians go after all catholics. So you could get in the school. As mentioned earlier, the school has to fill all free spaces.