Belleville/Honeywell first offer distance? Post Reply

[papinian]

Papinian, this is most definitely a nationwide problem, sadly a lot of people who live BTC live in a bubble and think their problems are so particular to them! I own properties elsewhere and this is a problem in those areas. I have many friends who live in different towns and cities and they all talk about this subject every year. Read the papers, it is common!

Finally, do people really think that the very wealthy are falling over themselves and doing everything they can to get their kids into a state school?! Wake up! All the even moderately wealthy people I know would not even consider state education let lone moving house temporarily to get a place!

As I said, this is a problem in some parts of London and some large cities. It's not a problem in rural areas and small towns since there isn't the rental stock available to do the "one year" rent thing. Even if we just take Wandsworth Borough, has this ever been raised as an issue in relation to schools other than Honeywell and Belleville?

Regarding living in a bubble, I do wonder at your suggestion that all of the moderately wealthy people you know would not even consider state education. I work in the City and the majority of my friends with post-tax annual income in six figures have their children in state primaries and I would say that someone with a post-tax annual income of £100k+ is moderately wealthy. School fees for two children is £25-30k a year. That might be fine for those who bought before property prices rose so much, but many of us are carrying mortgages that eat a big chunk of income.

[runningmummy]

I agree with northcote dad. No one knows the individual circumstances of why people rent unless they are close friends. My child would perhaps be considered to have been a "demon child of a renter who then moved away in reception" by those who don't know our circumstances. Due to extending a house that took a ridiculously long time to be approved by the council we were unsure whether to rent or sell the property. In the mean time we moved out to work out where to live. The council would then not allow us to apply from our old house as we weren't living there and couldn't say for certain where we would be living in the future due to a host of other circumstances. When I rented I didn't think we would even get into the local school based on distance but we did and I am very happy with the school and it turned out the way it did. I am not now going to move my children again. I am still unsure about moving plans and would be ridiculous to go on waiting lists for schools marginally closer to the one they're in now when they are settled. There are many in my child's year who have moved due to a genuine variety of reasons. I just don't know who these short term renters refer to as wandsworth council definitely do not allow access to a school if you rent a second home and still have access to you original property. The council are scrupulous in checking this out.

[Siyeo]

What is clear is there are a significant number of parents who think it is ok to short term let and save money on school fees so they can afford bigger houses elsewhere, totally at the expense of people who have lived within sight of the school for a significant length of time. Of course there are extraneous circumstances, but to believe the system is not being worked by those with a less than good moral compass would be stupidity. Several parents have made it very clear that this is what they are doing when we had a child at the nursery. We have done more than the average amount of research on this matter and it is also clear that some local rental flats are getting several families children into the school in one intake. The issue is that if you short term let and then move once your child is accepted, the childs position should be reviewed and very good reasons for moving outside the catchment area be given. I am not sure being closer to the station you commute from is the best reason I have ever heard.

The problem is compounded by the governors of the school vetoing the similar rules on siblings as Beatrix Potter implement and on inspection you discover one of the governors who lives outside the catchment area rented to get his child in. In addition the council informed me that they rigourously apply the rules and actively scrutinise renters applications. With this rigorous testing in mind they informed me they were unable to detect any above mentioned people in the last ten years.

So there needs to be a change as the poor morals and attitude does cause bad feeling when people are trampled on by those with their elbows out. For those that do it, they should be under no illusion that their behaviour is frowned upon by more people than they think and their position openly discussed locally. So once again in this society it will come to rules being imposed for those that can't control themselves.

[Siyeo]

With a small exception there is a clue in the word Local. The school should be local to where you live. Not one a significant distance from where you live and requiring you in some circumstances to drive.

[amber2]

http://www.nappyvalleynet.com/mums/view ... 54&t=33217

[AbbevilleMummy]

'Actively scrutinise renters applications'?!?!

I don't recall the application form asking whether I rented or owned my home! And nor should it.

[KatherineHepburn]

Slyeo, Honeywell reception children have a home visit before they start. Although I am a Belleville parent I have a few friends who have had this visit.
You state that one flat in particular has been rented by several families for one year - this just wouldn't work would it?

[Nims]

According to google maps, I am 320m to Belleville school 'as the crow flies'. My husband and I have lived here nearly 7 years so far and we are owners of our home. Does this mean that we have zero chance in 2017 when our son is old enough to go to school?

I'd rather be walking him 4 minutes to school than take the bus to another primary miles away.

Looks like there is a need for another primary school BTC if the catchment is shrinking year on year. Anyone know if the council is considering this as an option? Only question is where as every space seems to be turning into more housing (eg. Chatham road development)...

[KatherineHepburn]

Nims - it might be worth having a chat with the folks who set up the Bollingbroke Academy (an inspired move), a few do post on NVN.
There is definitely a need for another school in the area.

[amber2]

Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe once the applications and offers have been sent you could effectively move out of the catchment and keep your place.

The home visits can be done at a different address than the application I believe.

[evieandrose]

Yes, home visits can be done at a new address-I know of someone who had theirs at their new address, not the one they had applied from....

Unfortunately, there is no easy solution, no perfect answer. It is SUCH an emotive subject too.

It would also be good (if not difficult to prove exact numbers) to work out exactly how many places go to the following groups:

1) First time children, (i.e. NOT siblings) genuinely living and planning to stay living (either renting or owning) IN catchment.
2) Siblings still IN catchment.
3) First time children who WERE genuinely living in catchment when offers came out, but moved within the first year because of space issues or genuine other reasons.
4) Siblings OUT of catchment.
5) Children whose parents owned a house out of catchment, and kept that house, but rented nearby, and have now moved back in... See also those who 'refurbished' their house and couldn't live in it, hence the 'need' to rent near the school.....

Someone also made the good point that when siblings are quite far apart in age, it is entirely possible that a child in say, year 5, got in when the 'catchment' was 500/600 metres, if the family is still living at that same address, is it fair that a sibling coming into Reception wouldn't get a place? No, IMO...

It is hard. It isn't fair, but short of more schools, I don't see there ever being a solution.

[Siyeo]

Short term let, means short term. So a family can apply from an address while their nice big house out of catchment is being modernised. They apply to the Honeywell or Belleville, so they can save themselves a consequential amount of money. They then move out and a second family does the same thing. The second and possibly third family jump to the front of the queue and get in during there course of the year. The home visit is meaningless and ineffectual.

Do people seriously doubt this happens?? The point is that these parents NEVER had or have any intention of being in the catchment area beyond the time it takes to get their child into the schools. There are a few solutions for these people. Firstly buy a smaller house that you can afford in the catchment area and have legitimate access to said schools or buy your big house, but if the schools are unsuitable, pay for private education. Having it both ways at the expense of others is distasteful and shows poor moral judgement

[Siyeo]

Nims sadly due to the pushy people with their elbows out, you have about a zero percent chance of getting in. The schools need to make rules in favour of the local people as sadly the above mentioned cannot restrain themselves from only looking out for themselves and are so thick skinned as not to realise that people do judge them for the actions they have chosen. It demonstrates the lowest level of human nature

[firsttimerSW11]

Siyeo, I wonder what your advice would be to someone like me who lives within spitting distance from Honeywell (250 metres) so opted for my small house BTC with its premium price to get into Honeywell rather than move to a big house out of catchment and rent to get in. I'm literally one street from Honeywell. And given the renters (by this I mean those who specifically rent to get a place at the school rather than peopple who happen to rent in the area) have taken a place from my very local child, I feel sufficiently aggrieved about the situation that when the time comes, I will rent on Honeywell Road to get into it.

Incidentally from what I hear this happens far more at HW than BV.
I blame Tatler magazine

[KatherineHepburn]

Slyeo, you really seem to have a personal axe to grind here.
You have constantly mentioned people in big houses who live miles away, who rent merely to steal places from poor people who live here.
This just isn't the case. This isn't the issue you should be battling.
If you looked at the council statistics regarding addresses and sibling distances you would clearly see that this just isn't the problem.
We have a massive shortage of school places in this area of Wandsworth. There has been a baby boom and places are horribly oversubscribed. This is happening up and down the country. We need more primary and secondary places in built up areas. Blaming parents who have moved, or who choose to rent clearly is not the solution, especially in a crazy house price boom.
So, you catch out a few 'temporary' renters, great...have you solved the problem? Not one bit.