Cleaner almost had accident - am I liable? Post Reply

[tamara]

Hi Everyone
My cleaner who I've had for many many years and we have a good relationship with, was dusting today and using a small step ladder.

She almost fell off it and once the shock had worn off, for both of us, it got me thinking.

If she broke her leg, or God forbid something worse, then in addition to the awful personal cost for her, am I liable for her "loss of earnings" or worse?

I don't consider us "rich" but we do have a nice house and we've had it for a long time for I guess we have assets that someone could chase.

I have no idea where we stand but it has me slightly worried. We do pay cash in hand as well so I suspect that there are a whole heap of issues here.

Does the same apply to nannies? Gardners?

Anyone with a legal brain I'd love to know

[Goldhawk]

Usually you are covered with your house insurance

[Wheresmyschool?]

Really?

That is good news but it is a little surprising.

I'm wondering if I should call my insurer to check.

Think I will...

[nvmof3]

My househd insurance definitely has it and I think that is normal. The postman could slip on your doorstep so you don't just need to employ someone to become liable for an injury claim.

[tamara]

Ok, thanks.

I am now trying to think of anyone else we need to insure!

Postmen, window cleaners, cleaners, nannies...

[Broken Dad]

Hi

I may only be adding more complication but this is a complex legal problem.

Broadly speaking there are two potential liabilities here that could come home to roost:

1. “occupiers liability” where you as the occupier of the land e.g. house owner or rental tenant injure someone there whether lawfully present or otherwise. Say you leave a cover off a well and the postman walks over it and falls in or say a child pinches some apples and your pet lion eats them. You are liable for both. Household insurance often covers this but check this with your insurer; and

2. “employers liability” as the cleaner’s employer. IF she is self-employed then she only has a claim under 1 above. If she is an employee then she has this too and it can be more onerous. Whether or not she is employed by you is not determined by being paid cash in hand. It may be a factor but not typically a huge one of the many that are taken into account in making this determination.

PS It is not advisable to pay cash in hand but pay on an invoice otherwise you are leaving your self wide open to a claim that you are potentially assisting in tax evasion and benefit fraud together with possible certain breaches of immigration law. Again you may have personal liability for this. Certainly for the taxes. HMRC are in fact toughening up on this aspect and hitting the party making the payment and not the party under declaring the taxes. However it certainly helps with the bottom line. Paying on an invoice also makes them far more likely to be held to be self employed.

[joolia]

We pay cash in hand but the cleaner is through an agency - should a reliable agency provide insurance in this situation?
Best wishes
Julia

[Broken Dad]

Well I suppose that depends. The agency supplied the cleaner but you pa cash in hand. the two do not appear to sit well together. Surely the agency would invoice you? So why pay cash in hand? is it because it is easier for you?

the issue is not so much who is insured but who is liable. However the agency should be insured by law if it is an employer.

[joolia]

I only pay cash in hand as thats what the agency recommend (the fee to the agency is paid by direct debit).

[Broken Dad]

personally i would do this:

1. Call the agency and check that they carry insurance; and
2. ensure that she is not an employee of yours. Get this in writing. ask for confirmation that she is a contractor and NOT an employee. Maybe email and keep the email.

good luck

[joolia]

Thank you - will do!

[Flora]

Hi

broken dad is right in saying that there are all sorts of issues that both Tamara's and Joolia's situation raises.

your household insurance covers visitors/ postmen/ etc but will not fully cover you should someone whom you are paying/ employing has an accident and sues you

they may have their own insurance if properly self employed, but there are rules for whether someone is employed or self employed - for example, if your cleaner is self employed then she could send someone else in her place to do your cleaning - which could lead to you being liable when you think you're not

theres also the linked question - what if she breaks your extremely valuable ming vase? does she have insurance to cover the claim you have against her? or how do you explain it to the insurance company...?

its the same with the gardener that you pay cash in hand - are they insured?
or indeed the electrician or plumber...

we have public liabilty insurance and employers insurance so we are covered and so are you if accidents happen. We also professional indemnity for when we give you gardening / horticultural advice

we do take cash payments (although not our preference) but you wont pay just any of our employees, you'd pay one of the partners or the chargehand / site foreman and you'll always get an invoice and receipt...

for some things cash in hand is fine - and we most of us do it at some time
but you're right that thinking a situation through may lead you/ us to change some of the ways we do things

coffee needed?!

[mumoftwo]

blimey

another one to add to the list of things to feel guilty about for not have sorted!

[Rosenshine]

An experienced reliable agency should have insurance to cover both your belongings and the cleaners should they injure themselves.

The agency should have also given the self employed cleaner a health and safety manual/training guide, or training, etc of some sort and have a document which the cleaner would have signed to say they will adhere to everything in it.

The cleaner should have in addition to the above signed a document with the cleaning agency giving their UTR number to verify they are self employed or that they will register as self employed... This covers the agency and clients.

Not all agencies will do this... So you will just need to check...

[Broken Dad]

Hi Rosenshine

Helpful reply thank you.

However you should all note that only an employment tribunal or court can decide if the cleaner is employed by you, another or self employed. Basically you need to be bale to paint a picture and Rosenshine's comment help you do this.

You will effectively employ them for example if they only or mainly work for you even if they come from an agency.

employment law is a minefield.