Yes, agree with all that. Short term pain for long term gain. The opposite if we had voted 'remain'.

The more one looks into how the council, commission and parliament works, the more you realise what a basket case the EU is. Qualified majority voting, pooled sovereignty, its all a rigged game. The parliament is a talking shop, MEPs are essentially toothless.

If it had remained a trading bloc, I imagine most of the 17.4 mill who voted 'leave' would not have had a problem with that. Instead we have an unelected technocrat like Juncker dictating to us. Thankfully for not much longer.

As for 'dog whistle' politics, that's a two way street of course. Project Fear.

I knew I might be poorer leaving the EU. I knew we would have 1o years of upheaval whilst we worked everything out. But freedom has a price and the price is worth paying.
Those that were greedy and liked the easy life whilst democracy went up in smoke will always be like that. The EU council, You can't vote them out. The model is wrong, the constitution is written. It must collapse.

You have a right to question a decision. What you don't have a right to do is agitate to overturn a plebiscite. The largest voter turnout in recent history. London I think was the only region in England that voted to remain? Get over it.

By all means campaign for a 2nd referendum: to re-join the EU after we have left. Respect the voters decision.

68% of degree holders or higher voted Remain. That is your entitled Met Lib Elite. Sat in your Ivory Towers, many in London, having a toddler tantrum because you don't understand the result.

The UK is the 2nd biggest net contributor to the EU to the tune of billions of euros. Why not use that to backfill the lost EU grants? Or build more hospitals?!?

That aside, the direction of EU travel is full Euro consolidation. One size fits all. The final solution. The precursor report to the next big EU treaty change makes this very clear. What will the UK and Denmark do with their EMU opt out? Be forced into a currency model that can't work? Or get to the back of the queue? Bleating Remainers need to be careful what they wish for.

You are right about Blair though. Orchestrated 13 years of carnage. Covert/mass immigration under Barbara Roche, an illegal war and on duty when the world went into global financial meltdown. I thought Brown had banished boom and bust? All that gave the Tories the excuse to then implement ideological 'austerity'.

The solution? Maybe fewer egomaniac politicians (on all sides) and a smaller state. And BREXIT.

I have just heard the sad news that Stephen Hawking passed away. A great British scientist who thought Brexit was a horrible disaster for Science in this country and the ideas that led to it ( and the election of Trump) detrimental to humanity. I know a science academic who has seen a huge flight in research associates to other parts of the world as there will be no funding for projects from the European commission.

I do resent being called part of the "Metroplitan elite" as I'm not elitist at all and do have the interests of those in poverty and those struggling all across the country. When food prices go up it will affect those with less money badly. I think it is reasonable to say that the architects of austerity Cameron and Osborne ( who have now buggered off) created conditions that would allow certain people to be scapegoats.

The Brexiteers I personally know are wealthy, rural, older, ultra Conservative and very elitist. In fact one of my in laws was a UKIP candidate, a professor, but with regressive views towards women and immigrants. He bullies his middle aged son still and is just an unpleasant person who much of the family avoid. On the other end of the political spectrum Brexiteers I know are ultra left wing ( my dad) and viewed entering the EU as tyrannical. They are stuck in the past. All are pensioners with not much to lose. It's the young who face unaffordable housing, tuition fees, cuts in vital services - social mobility is pretty much dead these days.

I am not keen on Tony Blair leading the way here though. He is a war criminal any many think so as well and so cannot get behind him whatever does.

The voter turnout for the referendum for over 65s was 90%. It is a massive shame a good portion of the young were so disengaged with politics that they didn't bother to vote. As well as those who had no say but have since turned 18. So the country's fate it seems was sealed by the elderly and those susceptible to dog whistle campaigning and who are easily misinformed . The media has a lot to answer for.

We have so many reasons to demand a second referendum for the sake of the young and our growing children. to help people to make more informed choices and encourage the young to vote next time.


We all have a right to question what has happened, be vocal about our lack of faith in the negotiations to bring about anything positive and should not let online bullies stop us.

You basically want to keep having a new referendum until you get the decision you want. As I originally said, behaving like a fascist, trying to overturn a democratic plebiscite. Take your message outside of London and see how far you get with your snake oil.

The NEC, no-one's suggesting the abolition of democracy, just that the 'will of the people' might not be the same now as it was in June 2016, fair to say no?

Given the closeness of the vote, probably worth checking? Most polls do seem to suggest a swing...

People who voted leave were lied to on a variety of issues, it's a complicated, nuanced issue, but the fact remains, no-one told them they'd be poorer, quite a lot poorer, for a very long time, so it's perfectly fair to question the legitimacy of the vote and ask, in the light of a few more facts, if the vote would be the same?

You might like to read this about the term 'elite' https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... it-elitist

I voted for freedom from the EU economic model.
I hope we go completely our own way.
Right now we are industrially hamstrung and have NOT been allowed to capitalise on the economic tidal wave that is renewable tech. This was because of our financial sector wealth.
When we go our own way we will be free to develop, catch up and compete. Right now Siemens is larger in the UK than in Germany but the profits go to Germany. Lets TUPE their UK staff to one of our industrial giants... oh yes we haven't got any, not since the EU model changed and we just became a region.
and then figures are given about our fishing fleet and income being so small.... It is only so small because is has been destroyed by our friends in the EU... I heard a figure of 1bn a year now, as I remember is was just under 10bn in 1984 when the EU began its expansion...

What a lot of Remainers don't seem to acknowledge, is that most Leavers did not vote on economic grounds. They were/are basically fed up with the status quo (not the rock group obvs). They have nothing now, are economically disenfranchised and so have nothing to lose from BREXIT. People in Grimsby don't really care if the price of Italian Mozzarella goes up 25%. Those of you trapped in our lovely Met Lib Elite bubble struggle to understand what was behind the BREXIT vote. You are like King Canute and the BREXIT tide. You can't stop it.

If Britain has the nous to produce goods and services the world wants/needs, then we will thrive outside of the EU. Doesn't seem to have done Samsung any harm being in Korea does it? But if we don't, then we will pay the price in time to come. I'm an optimist and think we will do well outside of the EU, which is a busted flush as an organisation.

As an aside, using a democratic vote to abolish democracy is a special kind of stupid. Ever hear of Magna Carta?

Who cares if you’re drunk!!!!

It seems that PS has such a negative impact on so many posts.

Keep up with bringing awareness to everyone.

If a post offends - don’t read it and then follow it.......

I agree that we the people need to call for a second Referendum. Here's a reality check about how a "soft" Brexit is still detrimental.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -eu-turkey


Well done Guy for your tireless commitment to this. Keep it up!

Thanks Windmill26, I have no intention of wasting much time on Parsley Song’s daft comments other than to briefly clarify something.

PS, you do indeed come across as negative and unhinged on this forum and this isn’t the first time someone has said this, so I think this is generally how you're perceived my most people. Also
I don’t think I’ve ever seen ANYONE EVER come out in support of you, what does that tell you? that perhaps that your manner and many of your views are considered toxic by the majority?

When enquiring about your identity in previous exchanges, it is for this reason - you constantly make snide, unnecessary, unpleasant comments about people while hiding behind your nom de plume, while I am completely transparent about who I am and what I do. It’s almost as if you’re embarrassed at your own opinions, or you don’t want people on here who may know you, to know PS is you. So it’s nothing to do with getting your address so I can troll you – you’re lying, AGAIN.

Just to briefly highlight another of your lies, my foot long posts that nobody reads? Why, in that case, do they regularly make the ‘most read’ list on NVN? You better have a word with admin bc it would appear her web site analytics aren’t working terribly well

I’m grateful for your intervention on this thread Windmill26, because I think you speak for many people on this forum. However, I think anyone as bitter as PS probably deserves our pity rather than our opprobrium. If admin does decide to take this post down, and I wouldn’t blame her, it’s not terribly edifying, we’ll just put another one up, which hopefully won’t be corrupted by PS's unpleasantness.

Admin, is there perhaps a reasonable argument now for suspending this account, she does rather pervasively infect and diminish this otherwise (in the main), pleasant, diverse and supportive community?

That’s my last comment on this thread other than to say please check out the attached leaflet – we have one EU national standing, the lovely Caroline Poschl from Austria, but we’d like many more, so please get in touch.

the parsley song wrote:You are spot-on The NSC. Be warned though, because Guy will probably next accuse you of belonging to Britain First (or whatever that banned group is called) and then he will want to know your name and address so he can troll you, like he's doing with me and you'll have the pleasure of his late-night drunken abuse. Enjoy the ride.

I am not sure if you realise how negative and unhinged you come across on this forum.Guy ,please don't reply as this thread is very important and would be a pity to have it closed down for some petty squabbling!

You are spot-on The NSC. Be warned though, because Guy will probably next accuse you of belonging to Britain First (or whatever that banned group is called) and then he will want to know your name and address so he can troll you, like he's doing with me and you'll have the pleasure of his late-night drunken abuse. Enjoy the ride.

GuyD73 wrote:Sorry but that's a simplistic view. Precisely to avoid the current state of division that's resulted from a 48/52 split, referenda often have super-majorities applied or have two votes some time apart to ensure that decisions of the electorate are not overly influenced by a dynamic at one specific moment in time.
It is perfectly reasonable to argue that that, given the unprecedented level of lying, possible election fraud and dark money (Electoral Commission's investigations are ongoing), a restricted franchise (16/17 year olds were excluded on the basis it was advisory) and the demographics of the vote, and now we know ANY form of Brexit will make us poorer (NOT mentioned at any stage in the campaign), it's reasonable to give the electorate a vote on the deal, with an option to remain.

Anyone who shares that view might want to sign this petition.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/205169

In little more than a year's time, given the numbers of leave voters dying and young people coming of voting age, we will be a country that wants to remain. It simply isn't fair to our children to claim that a vote 18 months ago is the immutable will of the people for evermore, it's not.

And before I get any daft responses, the above para isn't mean or offensive, it's a simple demographic fact.

Signed and shared.Thank you for posting it!

Thanks Misty32, I think it’s really important to make sure EU nationals know they can vote and be registered, as well as standing as candidates, so please share the link at the bottom of this post on your networks. There’s increasing media coverage, a big leaflet campaign and canvassing just starting, so hopefully Renew will become much more visible in the coming weeks

Local elections on 3rd May are the last before Brexit.
Even if you don’t normally vote in local elections, take ten minutes to vote Renew. We are standing everywhere in Wandsworth and will represent YOU.
Vote Renew to:

Send a message to your MP to oppose Brexit

Build a new party for the politically homeless

UK and EU citizens can vote and make your voice heard to stop Brexit.

Register at www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/200411/voting/2033/register_
to_vote (deadline 17th April).