[quote=supergirl post_id=277371 time=1647935588 user_id=11918]I am no lawyer but I fairly confident that unless you have signed an employement contract with your cleaner, you can choose fairly easily to take your business elsewhere…[/quote]

As previously, I am not a lawyer. What @supergirl has written is [b]definitely[/b] incorrect. Contracts of employment can come about in the same way that other contracts arise, eg: in writing, verbally, via the conduct of the parties…

The part of employment that is required by law to be in writing is the “particulars of employment” – what hours someone is required to work, what the pay will be, etc. But this is a duty of the employer to provide, in its absence a contract of employment can still arise, the absence is regarded as a breach of employment law and action can be taken against the employer.

The long and short of it is that employment arises through a set of circumstances, that do not require a written contract or particulars of employment. However, as previously, I don’t believe that domestic cleaners would usually be regarded as employees.

The first few lines of this government advice make the situation clear:

https://www.gov.uk/au-pairs-employment-law

Basically, cleaners are self employed.

I am no lawyer but I fairly confident that unless you have signed an employement contract with your cleaner, you can choose fairly easily to take your business elsewhere 🤷🏻‍♀️

It her choice to wear a mask or not. It your choice to ask for a cleaner to wear one in YOUR house. You pay for a service she provides therefore you are her client.

You can CHOOSE to ask her to leave. You can also choose to give her some notice - which I think is the decent thing to do.

You respect her choice. She respects yours. No issue. Unless there is something else, it is a non event in my opinion.

But given the timing as we re now in April, the issue has passed anyway.

[quote=ronangel post_id=265551 time=1614577884 user_id=52759][amongst other nonsense]…You leave yourself open to legal action to sack her for not getting vaccinated or refusing to employ someone on the grounds that they have not been vaccinated…[/quote]
I am not a lawyer, but I have some employment law experience. I am pretty certain that one is not an employer of a cleaner (although one might describe oneself as such), you are in fact the cleaner’s client. This is in the same way that you are not the employer of a plumber or electrician who comes to fix a problem.

These people are under a contract for services, not a contract of service. The main distinction here is that the cleaner will have other clients, will not have a contract of employment (or written particulars of employment) and will not receive sick pay or have any annual leave entitlement.

There are particular rules/regulations for employers who employ people to work in the employer’s domestic environment, but this would apply to live-in carers, full-time nannies, butlers, etc, where those people were under the direct control of the employer.

So, you are free to stop using them whenever you like.

Agree 100%

I have been in hospital 16 months and feel incredibly grateful.

On Friday (with the full approval of the hospital) l went on an interview. I felt reasonably confident as they sent a bundle of emails stating l would have to wear a mask, that my Covid status would be checked at entry etc.

I arrive and am disappointed that it is a GROUP interview. One of the interviewees was not wearing a mask. The interviewer gave him a mask. In an act of total defiance, he left it on the boardroom table. Like an idiot, l did not call him out. Today a second confirmation test shows l have Covid.

To the OP it's your home, your rules and your choice but if you want to minimise the risk, you say NO MASK - NO WAGES. Simple

[quote=Scotroll post_id=267618 time=1619794720 user_id=56318]Don't know what to suggest. I guess it's everyone's choice to wear a mask at this point.[/quote]

And presumably an employer's choice to ask, especially when it's their home.  There's so much conflicting evidence over masks and social distancing, I'm not sure what to think, so I follow the law as it stands.  I guess it will all come out in time.

[quote=Scottov post_id=265566 time=1614586952 user_id=18727]Ignoring the fact that there is no evidence at all that masks work, you are in breach of the equalities act 2010 by even asking

You have no legal right, and can be held accountable, for questioning her right to an exemption on any basis

Stop being an interfering so and so, and get back in your box 😇[/quote]

Can you post a link to that please?  I'm fairly convinced that the emergency Covid legislation superceeds anything else.  Are you sure an employer can't ask for evidence of exemption?

Our last two cleaners (pre Covid) told us they weren’t registered with GPs or dentists. I presume they wanted to be ‘under the radar’. The last one only registered when she became pregnant. No registration presumably means no invitation to get vaccinated. Perhaps this is the case with your cleaner?

The chances of getting it now are slim - only 200 cases in Wandsworth last week.

Its difficult to find good reliable cleaners - just go out for a walk whilst she is cleaning if you feel so strongly about this.

[quote=Mumof4littlemonsters post_id=265618 time=1614604637 user_id=56035]
I wont get into a discussion either but it literally states everywhere that the covid vaccine doesn’t stop you from getting or spreading it. I’m not talking about all vaccines just this one right now. I won’t bother starting on the others. I actually know more people that are against having said vaccine than the ones willing to have it.
I will find link to vaers cases and add later on as you’ve only sent me an article. Again I don’t watch the news, read papers or have social media. I speak to doctors whom are family friends and funnily enough won’t be having the vaccines themselves. Then I do my own research. But like i said, it’s a personal choice if you want it great if you don’t then also great, but I don’t agree that people are being forced to take it.
[/quote]

You don’t watch the news, read papers or have social media (yet here you are on NVN which is a social forum). Yet you claim to be informed about this and have a number of anti-vax links that you’re going to post (which presumably have spontaneously come to you and not news, papers or any social media). You also purport to have multiple doctor family friends all of whom won’t be getting a vaccine because of safety concerns?

Yup. Ok. From a poster who registered with NVN first thing this morning in order to post a few anti-vax messages in 2 threads.

I have a number of real friends and family who are doctors or surgeons, one of whom is a intensive care consultant at one of our local hospital trusts, specialising in respiratory illness. Funnily enough all of them, in particular the ICU specialist, are strong advocates of vaccination and, to the extent they have not already been able to get one, are waiting for theirs. They would be dismayed at the utterly false suggestion that doctors are against it as they have to deal with the very real fallout of COVID.

I have no truck with this kind of fake anti-vaccine rubbish. It’s misleading and dangerous. I don’t believe anyone should be made to take it (and there is no suggestion of anyone being forced to take it) but I do object to spreading misleading disinformation.

You’re not overreacting. It’s a tricky subject but it’s your house, your rules.

Also, you can ignore the suggestion that you’re somehow in breach of anti-discrimination legislation by asking or insisting on it. I’m a lawyer. You’re not.

I wont get into a discussion either but it literally states everywhere that the covid vaccine doesn’t stop you from getting or spreading it. I’m not talking about all vaccines just this one right now. I won’t bother starting on the others. I actually know more people that are against having said vaccine than the ones willing to have it.
I will find link to vaers cases and add later on as you’ve only sent me an article. Again I don’t watch the news, read papers or have social media. I speak to doctors whom are family friends and funnily enough won’t be having the vaccines themselves. Then I do my own research. But like i said, it’s a personal choice if you want it great if you don’t then also great, but I don’t agree that people are being forced to take it.

I think the cleaner has to consider yours and your families health.

She cant just say ‘Im healthy’
She is in other peoples houses and 1 in 3 show no symptoms at all
Even having the windows open would of been some protection, but as you say, she closed them..

I think i would let her go and personally wouldnt have a cleaner at the moment as the risk is high if she is refusing to wear protection like a mask and gloves

Mumof4littlemonsters:

I won't get into a philosophical discussion about vaccines, but:

1. Vaccines [b][u]are[/u] [/b]very effective at stopping disease, and there is increasing real world evidence that they stop infectivity too, so not only are you protected, but you protect other; and

2. It is [color=#e74c3c][u][b]not[/b][/u] [/color]true that VAERS has recorded any deaths associated with vaccines - see eg  https://tinyurl.com/3b8ht6tc.  I have been CEO of an MHRA regulated company and can tell you from personal experience that the regulatory authorities are very thorough and that the statistical data is hard to interpret for an amateur.

Do please try to get some balanced information, preferably not from social media - eg, talk to your GP.  And also note that rightly or wrongly it is becoming increasingly likely that your life will be restricted if you are not vaccinated.

Really sorry to hear about your situation with your cleaner sammysquirrel - and others too. Very tricky but to add to the debate - we stopped our cleaner coming before Christmas when we went into Tier 4 as we were worried for her and our health and safety as she has to travel on buses to get to us. However, we were very aware that she had lost a lot of work in the past year and so we paid her in full throughout the time she was away. Appreciate not everyone will feel able to do this but we wanted to support her as much as we could. Recently our cleaner asked if she could return to work. Because she is ultra careful with face coverings and handwashing etc. we have agreed that she can start again, but we have stipulated she has to wear a mask while here, which we provide. She is thankfully happy with this arrangement but we wouldn't have had her back otherwise. Given the current situation and the long road ahead, wearing a mask would seem to be the minimum expectation and pretty essential (even if cleaners and we/you are vaccinated or not) if we are all to avoid even further risks to life and longer lockdowns.

Hey OP,

Have you considered cleaning your home yourself?

It doesn’t take that long to do. It’s a house, not a town.

xoxo