In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer...

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HR2611
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby HR2611 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:13 am

Wow Shocked, I don’t even know where to begin with your message. Do you not see that your suggestions for Guy are likely to cause irreparable damage with his family? Why would you encourage someone to do that? His in-laws voted Leave, they are not evil murdering killers who should be shunned and vilified.
If your advice was followed, Guy could truly claim that Brexit has ruined his life, but only because taking the kind of stance you suggest would cause such problems in his personal life.
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GuyD73
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby GuyD73 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:51 am

 As ever, there are some very considered, kind and helpful responses here. Thank you and I’ll respond in turn. SW12pops I appreciate your comment but it appears we are diametrically opposed as to our interpretation of what the vote represented. You call it ‘democracy’, I call it a criminally procured marginal result from a gerrymandered electorate, characterised by stolen facebook data, dark money and election fraud.  We were told it didn’t matter that 16/17 year olds couldn’t vote because the ref was advisory.  (Oh, and then all of a sudden it wasn’t – not OK). It was also dreadful not to allow Brits living overseas >15 years to vote on a matter of such importance. There are 11 ongoing criminal investigations into the conduct of both Leave.EU and Vote Leave campaigns. VL recently lost their appeal and Grimes has been found guilty and fined £20k by the electoral commission. This was to a criminal burden of proof. The whole axis of Banks and Farage is dodgy AF and I bet we see further revelations linked to the Mueller investigation in the US.  Then you have the disgusting, dog-whistle-racist micro-targeted ads on Facebook, the abhorrent Breaking point poster and the lying on an unprecedented scale about more £ for the NHS (Farage withdrew that the next day!) and hordes of Turks coming here, when there was NEVER any prospect of Turkey joining the EU in our lifetimes.     If, has been suggested in some quarters, Gove and Johnson were aware of the collusion between campaigns and therefore complicit in election fraud, and if they are found guilty as such by the National Crime agency, do we still respect the result? Or do we consider it illegitimate? Not a tricky one that. That was not democracy, it was an utter failure of democracy.  I’m afraid you also attempt to use an analogy which isn’t equivalent in any sense. My choice to believe or not believe has no negative impact on my kids, their potential future partners or anyone else. A believer’s refusal to deal with a non-believer would indeed be intolerant (and vice versa) but this isn’t the same thing. In this instance, my in-laws vote directly removes the rights my kids have to live and work across a continent, it removes their rights as EU citizens. What a hideous thing to do to your grandchildren, it makes me feel physically sick.
  Lalectrice, I really appreciate your contribution a great deal, thank you. I couldn’t agree more with your description ‘sinister, gut-wrenching and lamentable’. Your post also made me realise that I hadn’t given adequate thought to how the kids might be ‘conflicted’ and how I might mitigate that scenario. While I take on board the sentiment you express, and however this sorry mess plays out, there will come a reckoning where the children need to be told why the freedoms their parents enjoyed some of their adult lives do not apply to them, and one cannot pretend that it isn’t those who voted leave (and the cretins that lied to them) that precipitated the situation. My kids are 4 and a half and 6 and a half. I haven’t really even considered when might be an appropriate age to explain the full picture to them, but I expect they will be mature enough to understand it before they hit double digits. In any case, they are seasoned campaigners now, having been on every significant pro-EU march and demonstrated outside Parliament several times.
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shocked
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby shocked » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:40 am

HR2611 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:13 am
Wow Shocked, I don’t even know where to begin with your message. Do you not see that your suggestions for Guy are likely to cause irreparable damage with his family? Why would you encourage someone to do that? His in-laws voted Leave, they are not evil murdering killers who should be shunned and vilified.
If your advice was followed, Guy could truly claim that Brexit has ruined his life, but only because taking the kind of stance you suggest would cause such problems in his personal life.

I think what you fail to see (as those who say a new referendum will damage democracy) is that the damage is already done. Murders and killers do not receive text messages, they receive jail sentences. Please do not exaggerate  :lol: . Confronting people who hurt us does not ruin our life, it makes us freer.  Do you really think humour will make his life worse? In which way? Dont you think the in-laws demand of keeping quiet, not complaining, putting up with it, also ruins happiness?
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juliantenniscoach
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby juliantenniscoach » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:27 pm

I'm afraid that you have been obsessed with this.  Politicising your children at such an age, when by your own admission, they are too young to grasp the complexities and at the same time eviscerating your in-laws for excercising their democratic right to vote.  As a couple of other posters have suggested, if you cannot compartmentalise this, it's time to seek some professional help.
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shocked
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby shocked » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:43 pm

GuyD73, 

I dont think you need professional help. I think you sound perfectly coherent and your anger comes from a very lucid place. 

Your kids already know what you think and they will form their opinion with their friends in the pub at 17 and in the dorms at Uni. You are channelling your frustration through your children and that may not be the best way to go about it.  

Your frustration should be directed to your in-laws because they are the ones trying to gag you and your opinions which is what many leavers have been doing for almost three years. That is why they invented the term remoaners: Shut up! Be quiet! They say the want democracy but democracy is being able to change our mind under different circumstances like we do with parliament every 5 years. Democracy is being able to debate, to discuss. They do NOT like democracy.  

You need to take it with your in-laws. Maybe write them a letter? 

 
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sw1234
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby sw1234 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:58 pm

Interesting thread. I agree with the dangers of social media. It doesn’t help our ability to switch off from things like these. Put your energy and time into positive things that make you and your family happy. You can’t change these things, they will take their own path. Join clubs, volunteering, more exercise. Anything to keep your mind occupied on things. Too much time to think is often the root of all evils in terms of mental health issues.
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HR2611
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby HR2611 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:07 pm

Shocked, to clarify, my comment re the in-laws having voted Leave and not being evil murdering killers was with regards to your linking the in-laws desire not to discuss Brexit (and I would note that the OP says the family collectively agreed to that, so I don’t think it can be said based on the information provided that just one side is suppressing the other) to nastiness not wanting to take responsibility and your example of Hilter.
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shocked
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby shocked » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:33 pm

HR2611,

Based on GuyD73 comments maybe the spouse's family decided that collectively but he (she?) is obviously not happy with it (but I could be wrong). Or he may go along with it to avoid a massive row but it is eating him inside. Therefore my suggestion of a humorous text or letter. 

My comments about hitler was just to illustrate an extreme case where nasty attitudes were not followed by wanting to deal with the consequences. I do not compare his in-laws to hitler, in fact (and i quote myself) I said "However, your parents in law voting Leave is not the worst crime. There are lot worse. They are just not very kind. " So no, they are not criminals or murderers. But they dont seem to care about the consequences their decision will have on their grandchildren. Their ability to travel freely, work, live in the rest of Europe...or even the lack of jobs in the UK if many companies leave or have to close...To avoid hurting your feelings, I have deleted the hitler comment...

On the other hand, I think it is important to remember always that all countries, specially those that have a colonial past, have a history of murder and genocide. In many of these countries, those people responsible are seen as heroes and are immortalised in paintings and statues...

Talking about responsibility, any other PM would have resigned after the Windrush scandal. People's lives have been ruined and some lost as they were not allowed to come back for life saving treatments in the country they had payed national insurance contributions all their lives. How do you feel about it? 

The only good thing about Brexit is how much we are learning about each other. Leavers have valid reasons to hate Europe and the bureaucrats in Brussels and contributing to the EU... however, if you read between the lines above, Remainers are moaners, are obsessed, need professional help...

It is ok for grandma to leave the Daily Mail on top of the kitchen table for the kids to read when they are too young to understand if what it says is true, but god forbid you take you children to a demonstration to fight for their rights...


 
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Kitkat04
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby Kitkat04 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:58 am

Errr, no. Hello Irish backstop? Hello trade agreements that cannot be set up? Bit of a silly emotional fact-ignoring comment!
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Needcoffeenow
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby Needcoffeenow » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:33 am

Our MIL voted leave despite living in a poor area of S Wales where employment has been hugely boosted by EU money. She spontaneously explained that she didn’t agree with all these foreigners being allowed into our country and that ‘we should be allowed to have bendy bananas’. Yes, really. We advised our (now grown up) children not to mention Brexit at our occasional get-togethers and they think it is all rather a hoot. They get that old people often have odd ideas and just accept it. Agree it isn’t worth creating divisions in the family. In any case, our childrenn only have this one grandparent so we need to live with it really.
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CommonGuy
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby CommonGuy » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:41 am

Oh for god sake Man Up. So the in-laws voted Leave. Did they also cut the nose of the brie and pass the port the wrong way? They are 2 of 17.4 million who exercised their democratic right to form a view and vote. You may think you are intellectually superior but in a democracy you must accept the result. I think maybe you are living in a priviedged bubble in the South East where everything has always gone your way. I suggest you wake up and live in the real world.
And please stop playing the children card. We know you won't be able to look them in the eye if you don't try and stop the ultimate evil known as Brexit. Go march, throw yourself in front of Queen's horse if you must but leave the kids out of it. Have you ever thought that the in-laws might be delighted to see the grandchildren without you?
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Dickyd
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby Dickyd » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:59 am

I will not beat around the bush but how utterly pathetic and selfish of you GuyD73. Your in-laws are perfectly entitled to their view point on Brexit, as indeed everyone is..... it's called democracy. Who are you to punish them for their views? You mention the protection of our mental health..... it might be just a little too late for you my old china!
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miramalna
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby miramalna » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:07 am

Well said!
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supergirl
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby supergirl » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:32 am

Joining this thread because of what I strongly feel.

@guy73
At the end of the day and in my opinion, the answer to your question is it depends if your principles are stronger than your family ties. But do not confuse principles and values. You can learn to disregard your principles but not your values i believe.
To me Brexit is a principle not a value, tolerance is a value.

If these principles are so strong that you cant get over a difference of opinion, then live by them and look at yourself in the mirrow with pride. Stop seeing them. Leave your kids out of it but do explain in a NEUTRAL WAY both side of the story so that in times then can decide for themselves. Inform them and educate them on both sides of the equation.
(Your wife might be extremely disappointed but every choice has consequences you need to weigh them up)

I have strong values and principles. Sometimes i disregard my principles for the sake of the bigger picture but never would i go against my values. I believe in Europe, I believe in the reasons of why NATO and the European market were started it in the first place even if both institutions are not perfect. I believe that we should all stay united and help repair the Union instead of exiting; but I also believe that everybody has a right to an opinion and some chose to vote to exit.

I am hugely disappointed. Very good friends of mine voted exit but would I stop seeing them because of our differences? No. The bigger picture in this case is they are good people and we disagree. They are not racists, they understand the economy and see the future differently than I do. This is a difference in principles not in values, so i can agree to disagree (even though i loath this saying).
Btw, my permanent residency application was denied.
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ClaphamPkorNot?!
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Re: In-laws voted leave. They've removed my children's freedom of movement and I can't cope with seeing them any longer.

Postby ClaphamPkorNot?! » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:37 pm

Just Wow.
Preamble: remain voter.  Voted labour until JC turned up, now can't. Love DEBATING Brexit with friends and family cos I want to understand why.  Don't agree but I respect their views (else why should they respect mine?!).  Wish we could stay, don't disagree with your points as to why its crap. etc Wife feels the same; but if I attacked her family, I'd get dropped quicker than a hot-brick.  

I'm amazed at your stance OP.  
It's important, but we have to get on with our loved ones.  Maybe you don't love your in-laws and this is a good cover.  Whatever, it's only going to cause domestic disharmony. Are you potentially prepared to divorce over this? 

I love debating Brexit with friends and family. I'm still trying to understand why people are v comfortable with leaving with the economic down-curve we're about to see, but I'm certainly not going to fall out with anyone. Basically, some people don't think Europe is nirvana and  would rather rules were made here vs economic prosperity, but then that's their view.  We don't have to agree with them.  There will no doubt be a debate in five years' time about re-joining something.   

I still see my parents and my in-laws (all voted leave) and we talk about other stuff. I still talk and see friends and their family and play golf with those that voted leave (and by the way, we all think Dave Cameron should have tried harder).  If I only ever discussed Brexit with people that were bored by it all (and most people are - which is a crap reason for accepting whatever the outcome is, but hey ho), I doubt they'd want to see me.  

Yes, I sometime slip into an echo chamber and swap disbelief with like minded individuals, but it's pretty much going to happen. But importantly, they're not my family.  Develop two ways to air your views, v British but necessary when you live in Britain, one that is what you believe and air it in space where people agree with you, and one v toned down for people to know what you think but don't ram it down their throat, that really is fascist. 

Focus on relationships.  In five years' time it will have happened.  It will be a bit or a lot crap, but it will have happened.  You need to be able to call on those around you, or you'll be v lonely and quite possibly single with or potentially without access rights to your kids.

And for god's sake (I'm a lapsed Jew) leave the kids out of it.  Give them principles and explain your values, but don't shove it down their throats.  You'll come to regret that when they turn 20 and potentially think you're a pr*&^k.  You can only guide your kids, you've got to leave it to them to work out what's important to them.  Believe me (see line one of this para).

And to echo what other people have said, if you can't do this on your own, get some help.  You'll be amazed at what 6 sessions of counselling can achieve.  You won't stop believing what you do, but you'll be able to be happier about it all.  

Be happy.  It's clear you're not.
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