friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

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GWcouns
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby GWcouns » Wed May 05, 2010 2:01 pm

I'm not strictly disagreeing with what everyone else has said, but.....

I wonder if it is actually illegal? If she is genuinely going to rent your place and actually move into it, then she is fulfilling application criteria. There are plenty of people who buy specifically in the roads around Honeywell etc in order to get their kids in, do people who can't afford to do so, but maybe live within a mile of the school and not get places there, have the right to jump up and down that the system is unfairly stacked in favour of the have's and have nots.

Also, if a family were genuinely living in a catchment, but then at a later date decided to move and their new house wasn't in the catchment, but still in a reasonable distance, would they be expected to remove their kids? No, of course not. I'm guessing your friend doesn't live miles and miles away, as why would she want to take on a ridiculous school run when you move back.

The whole system is a bit buggered, we all know that, not enough good schools, too many kids, but I'm afraid its the law of the jungle out there, and you have to do what you can to get the best for your kids. Those of you who are throwing your hands up in horror at the unfairness of it, if you are unlucky enough not to have a good school for your kids, given the opportunity to get them into a trophy school, if it meant renting for 6 months, bet you'd all do it.

I know there's something a bit underhand about it, but I found the tone of the shock, horror responses a bit much, and I'd say go for it. If it was a friend of mine asking the same favour, I'd be saying yes.
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custardy
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby custardy » Wed May 05, 2010 2:23 pm

funnygirl - the point is that the friend DOESN'T intend to move into the property, just use it as a front address in order to try and secure a place - which IS fraudulent.

and in answer to your question about whether the rest of us would do it, Belleville school is my nearest one, but on current catchment I will struggle to get my children in, a situation which worries me no end as I can't afford private by any stretch and we will be stuck travelling further to a less good school. However, I have no intention of renting a property nearer to the school to secure a place as I know that that would be immoral and fraudulent in spirit if not in the letter of the law. So no, other people would NOT act in this way.

And I wouldn't dream of putting a friend in this position by asking them to rent out their place so I can commit fraud.
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hazel15malwood
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby hazel15malwood » Wed May 05, 2010 9:55 pm

Absolutely agree with custardy.
It is most definitely fraudulent to apply for a school place from an address that is not actually your residence - I don't think there's any debate on that front.
And absolutely not everyone would act in the same way. Our closest school is Honeywell with Belleville a pretty close 2nd. We could well have manipulated/abused the system by renting a flat on Honeywell or Belleville Road for the application period, and have arguably compromised our chances of getting into one or other school as a result. But our view is that it's WRONG - morally, if not legally, so we haven't done it.
I know all that any of us want is the best start for our children - but that's why my husband and I mortgaged ourselves to the hilt and bought a house at a massive premium to surrounding areas when our first child was born, anticipating the need for good schooling and to try and legitimately secure a place in a good school.
What makes me mad is that others who haven't played by the rules and who've manipulated the system in an entirely selfish manner, have done us out of a place; I can't express how livid this makes me :x
Rant over!!!
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anxiousannie
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby anxiousannie » Wed May 05, 2010 10:12 pm

Thank you so much for the feedback and for the advice.

I have decided to go ahead and let my friend rent my flat. She will have to move in, be given an agreement, change utilities and the like. She will also have to live there. She will properly move in.

After her child is in then she can move back if appropriate.

I am really sturggling with this and I know that for all you these kids are only words on a screen but for me they are real children whom I love.

I know that you might shout back that you're own kids are real and you love them but isn't that exactly the point?

We move into areas that have better schools because we can and we push kids into tuition for exams because we can. Both of those activies deprieve another child of a place but both are legal. What I am doing will deprieve a child of a place but it is also legal.

What these posts have made me aware of is the gravitas of the situation and I'm not entering it lightly but I think I have to do what I can.

I will keep you posted as to what happens.

AA
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hazel15malwood
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby hazel15malwood » Wed May 05, 2010 10:59 pm

Just wanted to set the record straight - having just disputed with my DH the legality (or otherwise) of misrepresenting your address on a school application form, apparently it is not entirely clear whether it is fraud and as the cases brought against parents who have been found to have done this have not made it to court, there is no legal precedence (if that's the right term). See http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/200 ... admissions
So, I stand corrected.
I still think it's wrong - but we all make our own decisions and have to live with them.
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herogirl
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby herogirl » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:07 am

anxiousannie

the council, I hope is monitoring this site and using whatever power it has to find out who you are and what you are doing and, I hope stopping you. I sincerely hope that when you return you find yourself banned from applying to the schools you colluded in cheating and that your friend has to move her children.
You will have seen my posts regarding Belleville. I have today written to our new MP and Minister for Education about people like you and asked them and the council to launch an investigation, I hope they do and hope that they really clamp down on selfish people like you and your friend who think you can buy yourselves a state education by cheating and renting a second home! I urge others to ask the council to investiage and stop people like anxiousannie, it is you they are cheating!
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AbbevilleMummy
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby AbbevilleMummy » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:18 pm

I do understand everyone's outrage and initially I felt the same way in that it is morally wrong and desperately unfair on those living in the catchment area. However, as I was reading through all the posts I started to change my mind and I do think that funnygirl has a point.
We are renting at the moment whilst we look for a house to buy, yet the houses in the good catchment areas are an absolute fortune and well beyond our budget even though both myself and my husband have successful careers and earn quite a bit of money. Therefore we may well continue to rent (which is by no means cheap in this area!) until we have got our daughter into a good school and only then buy somewhere we can afford.
Is this really any different to the friend in question?
If the council, government or whoever, does not like parents resorting to these tactics then they must improve the schooling system with regards to catchment areas.
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anxiousannie
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby anxiousannie » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:58 am

thanks for all your comments. Can I please make something clear. This is not about fraud or doing anythnig dodgy. My friend wants it to be legal and above board. All she wants to do is to make sure she ISN'T doing anythnig wrong. I really fail to see what is wrong with that.

If she is ALLOWED to use an address, if she now moves in and changes the bills, then whats wrong?

Are you telling me that she doesn't deserve a place because she's not rich enough? Because she works in the public sector helping people as opposed to being the wife of as rich banker should she be punished?

As long as she plays within the rules then so what? It makes ME mad that you think she shouldn't get in to the school because she can't afford to buy? Save your anger for your MP, council and govenrment who messed up the education system so that there are not enough good places.

AA
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anxiousannie
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby anxiousannie » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:58 am

thanks for all your comments. Can I please make something clear. This is not about fraud or doing anythnig dodgy. My friend wants it to be legal and above board. All she wants to do is to make sure she ISN'T doing anythnig wrong. I really fail to see what is wrong with that.

If she is ALLOWED to use an address, if she now moves in and changes the bills, then whats wrong?

Are you telling me that she doesn't deserve a place because she's not rich enough? Because she works in the public sector helping people as opposed to being the wife of as rich banker should she be punished?

As long as she plays within the rules then so what? It makes ME mad that you think she shouldn't get in to the school because she can't afford to buy? Save your anger for your MP, council and govenrment who messed up the education system so that there are not enough good places.

AA
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herogirl
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby herogirl » Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:44 am

you miss the point, she is not living there, she is only using the address to get into the school and even is she does live there for a few months, it is a sham! She is not less entitled to go there because she is not rich, she is less entitled because that is not where she really lives and she is denying others nearby a place. I find your posts selfish to the point of being an art form! I have written to the council and mps and asked them to investigate people who behave like this. I think you will find the council backtracking big time on allowing people to do this when they find themselves being scrutinised by central govt!
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dandelion53
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby dandelion53 » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:00 am

Herogirl, she has said that her friend will move into the flat, so will be within the 'rules' and not a sham. But, it is morally wrong and fraudulent in spirit as others have pointed out. I think anxiousannie knows this deep down as it came across in her original point but she is now justifying it to herself.
It is irrelevant that the friend is not rich and is a public sector worker, there will be other public sector workers or people on low income living in the catchment who are entitled to a place but will be cheated by someone playing the system. It may be legal but it is 'playing' the system.
She will be forcing someone else who actually lives in the area to travel a long way to school. This is unfair and I'm sure anxiousannie and her friend know it. When she eventually moves back, her children will no longer live near their school or their friends.
All the schools in Wandsworth are good, they all teach in a similar way, and offer similar opportunities. Some get better results in league tables because of their catchments and then that leads people to fight to get into them. It is so stupid and creates a vicious circle. Other schools would be more balanced if people would relax, go to THEIR local school rather than letting fear drive them. It is ridiculous to move house temporarily, I bet the local school near her is good.
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herogirl
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby herogirl » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:31 pm

Dandelion, just to clarify, I know her friend is moving into the flat but it is still a sham because it is not her principle residence, it is simply a residence for a purpose, namely, to cheat the schooling system. Now, if this were a tax being dodged and the flat used to dodge it, they would find HMRC breathing fire on them! It is incumbent on WW to put an end to this and to give themselves the right to deny places where they believe there is a sham setup. It is not rocket science, even Gove should be able to sort that out!
I do agree with you entirely that if everyone went to their local school and did not let fear or date I say it, snobbery, drive them, surely that could only benefit state education.
Today's news about free schools is sad and the policy is misguided, it will only lead to more education apartheid. Give the parents a right to say who goes into a new secondary and you can bet it will all be self interest. I cannot believe that teachers condone this? Teachers, what do you think will happen in the NSC gets underway?
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anxiousannie
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby anxiousannie » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:03 am

can we alll just calm down and reassess the situation.

my friend is absolutely clear, she will not do anything dodgy or illegal. she will however do everything within her gift to do the best for her kids. we are all the same in that respect, right?

she cannot afford to buy a house in the catchement area. she earns a small amount of money in public sector health. a one million pound house is never going to happen.

so now she has found a loop hole. she can borrow my flat, change the bills and get her kids into a great school. how on earth is that wrong? she is not lying or cheating or even misleading anyone. she has done her research and played the system. now you tell me that she has "done someone out" of a place? why? because they had more money? to buy?

sorry, you should focus your anger somewhere else, not at a mother who has researched and done the best for her kids.
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moops
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby moops » Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:50 am

I agree AA, I think you've had some really nasty comments on here. After reading everything I don't really see the difference if she had just rented a property in the area, she is still doing so to get her kids into their preferred school. If this is dishonest then should renters not be eligible for a place?
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herogirl
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Re: friend wants to use my address for primary school admission

Postby herogirl » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:29 pm

I don't agree that viewing an opinion is "nasty". Some of us just fundamentally disagree with people who work the system and are doing what we can to stop it. The point is not that renters should not be allowed a place, the point is that the principal home is where the distance should be measured from, not a sham set up for the sole reason of jumping a school queue. I will never agree this is fair. It is disingenuous to suggest she is worse off because she works in the public sector and thus can't buy a house there, what about all those who cannot afford to rent a second home to get a place? I see no difference. She is using the money she has over those more disadvantaged to rent a place to get a place? I do not feel sorry for her. I do hope the council takes note of all this nonsense and puts a stop to it once and for all. Councillors, if you are reading this, suggest you do something before it hits the press and you are embarrassed. It is no better than MPs expenses, just another lot of people abusing the system.
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