Emmanuel School...

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BTCparent
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby BTCparent » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:53 pm

Thanks for posting the Thomas's list - the Fulham comment was only in reference to those leaving at the end of Year 6.

The Thomas's list although referring to leaver destinations is actually a list of all the places offered as totting up the 2012 list there are over 80 places and the school year was not that big - most children sit for two or three London day schools to ensure they get a place somewhere. I know the system is different for boarding where you only sit for your preferred school.
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MGMidget
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby MGMidget » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:00 pm

One difference between these figures could be because they are different years. The figures on the website go up to 2012. Yummymummy is presumably talking about 2013 figures. Yes, there are an interesting number of places listed for Streatham and Clapham High School and Emmanuel in 2012 and maybe the raw data needs more explaining. There are also some achieving scholarships to highly competitive schools. So, it might be that Emmanuel/Streatham Clapham High was a place not taken up by some who were offered it but it would be interesting to know more.
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ready2pop
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby ready2pop » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:07 pm

The Thomas' leaver destinations have always been a bit mysterious. My husband has a particular boarding school in mind and when he asked the head how many they sent their he said it was 10's each year. Before taking up the place we asked for the printed statistics and found in fact it was only 3 in the past 5 years :(
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livegreen
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby livegreen » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:17 pm

@northcote luvvie

You stated "Now contrast the state child trying to get in at 11.
They have no support from their school (nor should they).
The bright ones (and I mean REALLY bright) will be snapped up by the independent secondary schools. They'll help move their grade point average in the right direction at GCSE and they'll nail the exams."

Lets take the 3 clsoest stae schools to Northcote and that I have knowledge of. The figures I will use are before the Bolingbroke Academy opened as many are seeing this as best option now (40 each from Honeywell and Belleville went this academic year).
In 2011, 58 out of 90 leavers from Honeywell went to selective State and Private schools. Approx. 20 out of 30 from Holy Ghost followed a similar path if we include Oratory. Belleville does not publish figures but at the 2 open days I have attended the Head estimate that around 40 went onto selective schools both state and private. The schools on these lists are predominantly the Dulwich, Wimbledon, Putney High Schools but also include the state grammers and Graveney, which are more difficult academically to get into. I have no doubt that most of these pupils were tutored at least an hour a week and also coached at home. If Northcoteluvvie is right the majority of children attending local state schools are "the bright ones (and I mean really bright)."
I would also say that many of those pupils who did not go onto selective schools may have also been able to get in but their parents may have decided to simply send their children to the closest local school they liked.
As far as i can gather no children from state primaries went onto board.

So what is the conclusion ? I do not believe that the majority of children at local state schools are super bright and know that this is not the case either in the private preps. IMO what it points to is that a lot of children in our area come from families who care about education and value it and their parents are probably graduates themselves. The local schools, whether private or state, will have a distribution of academic ability (it is likely to be towards the high end of normal due to their relatively priviliged childhood - ie read to, encouraged to count, trips to museum etc).
Again IMO if your child is struggling academically why send try to send them to a school that will not be suitable for them - better to find a school they will be happy in.
Also if they are doing well in the local state primaries they will be fine, they may need a little help if your target is a selective school but they will be ok.

I am sorry but I have no insight into Emmanuel - its biggest strength is that it is local and most children can walk or bike rather than having an hours commute.
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Tinasan
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby Tinasan » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:45 pm

Thanks Livegreen - you put it far more eloquently than me. Frankly, all this nonsense that is spouted about only 'super bright' state school kids to enter the private sector at secondary level is scaremongering, and extremely unhelpful to parents who are trying to make a balanced decision on what's best for their children!
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NorthcoteLuvvie
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby NorthcoteLuvvie » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:49 pm

Ok, it's always dIfficult to get involved,in specfiics but I will try.

First, the 58 figure is impressive but I don't know how many we're trying to get in to private.

If the percentage is less than 95% success rate for their chosen school then anecdotally it's abysmyal compared to private.

However the big issue is that the schools are so competitive that what I have seen is state children "dropping" a level if/when they transfer. So children who are bright enough to go to Dulwich will only get Emanuel, Emanuel wil only get S&C. I know of at least one boy from the schools you mention who was on a talented and gifted programme and failed to get into Dulwich. If he was at a private I think we would have probably gone to KCS.

I want to be very clear, I hate the system as I think it is unfair and elitist and gives children some dodgy values. However on the whole the private school kids will go on to better performing secondary's for a given intelligence level.

That is what parents are paying for.

Everyone will find an exception somewhere but as a generalisation it's true.
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jingo_x
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby jingo_x » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:19 pm

Broodje - you ask specifically how you can know what the quality of teaching is like at the school, but I am not sure how you can accurately assess any school from the outside. All you can do is keep revisiting and asking the questions until you are satisfied one way or another. You mention Emanuel as your plan B and whilst everyone needs a plan B, Emanuel did suffer from being everyone's plan B for a while and seen as a second choice.
The school provides parents with good evidence that between each year group they are see in progressively stronger results intra-year. Any league tables we can all look at are only a reflection of an intake made 6 years ago (for any school I mean), so perhaps the school would make intra-year information available to you.
What I can tell you from first hand experience is that children are stretched, but also supported whenever they face difficulties. Not every member of staff is brilliant of course, I doubt that could be said of any school, but I have noticed a continuous, gradual improvement in the staff that join the school. Most importantly my kids seem to respect them and always have positive things to say about them. Pastoral care has also been excellent.
As with any school choice you have to go with your gut feeling. For us, Emanuel was our plan A and we have never regretted it. It does sound as though you might already have made your mind up sand that the school isn't right for your child, so I am not trying to persuade you otherwise, I really only chipped in as the request was made for first hand experience. So I do hope it is useful information anyway.
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Tinasan
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby Tinasan » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:53 pm

Northcote - first you stated that only the 'super bright - not top of the class bright' state children can break into the private sector at secondary level. In your second post, you concede that this is not actually at all the case (hard not to, given the facts Livegreen posted), and that actually, you feel (no proof) that state children may 'drop a level' on secondary transfer.

So which is it? I completely agree that the private schools around here are paid to, and are successful at, ensuring that their leavers go on to good schools. My issue is that for upwards of £100k for the primary years, they jolly well should do! And for many families, that 'value add' just simply is not worth it, given the excellent job many of our local state schools are doing! I should add that I have nothing particularly against private education, but I do tire of the continuous propaganda that paints a black and white picture of state v private. In reality, the combination of parental input and outstanding state schooling make the differences much more subtle and less game-changing than those charging the fees would like us to believe!

For the original poster - sorry to derail your thread :) I do know a few families with children at Emmanuel who are very happy with the school. As others have said, your gut feeling is very important and if you feel that your child would flourish in a more demanding academic environment, it is worth pursuing that. (Which is a different thing from feeling that your child is not academic - just that some kids respond well to the pressure of a competitive setting, and others will prefer to be say, at the top of a more mixed ability group rather than at the bottom of a high ability group).

Rant over! :D
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saracc
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby saracc » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:17 pm

My son has just left Emanuel. He was very happy there and did very well. Excellent teachers and great pastoral care. We were very sad when he left. The school brought out the best in him and gave him great opportunities. Hope this helps.
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NorthcoteLuvvie
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby NorthcoteLuvvie » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:40 pm

Hi
Sorry for lack of a reply, been away.

All my opinions are anecdotal and not based on survey but I do have a lot of experience of all of the private schools so this is not scaremongering, I am just writing what I see.

There isn't a contradiction in what I wrote earlier, just to repeat my comment from an earlier thread

1) less able children who are privately educated will stand a good chance of getting in to a selective independent secondary because thats what they're trained for
2) bright state kids (really bright, please don't confuse just being top of the class, that's not enough) will be ok. They'll nail all the entrance exams
3) normal and less able state kids will struggle.

So Thomas will send lots of it's kids there because Emanuel will take a great deal of their intake anyway.

The bright state kids will go there because it's a great school.

To be really blunt Emanuel is not considered a top school by parents of local bright independent school kids. these acolades are reserved for Dulwich, Kings, Jags, Alleyns.

I am NOT saying it is not a good school, it is, but that if you are a top set kid in a local Indy you probably won't go for Emanuel.

So what I see happen a lot is that average Indy pupils go there and bright state kids go there.

They all Iove it and I am sure have a great education.

To be even more blunt, if you do not have children in the Indy sector then a lot of the nuances of the different schools and their intakes will be lost on you.

The danger is that if you are serious about moving from state to indy at 11 you won't realize, and therefore won't plan, for the massive switch it entails.
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schoolgatesmum
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby schoolgatesmum » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:58 pm

Actually Northcote the bright kids from state school who want to go independent go to Jags, alleyns etc. the kids who want a local school but don't want state, go to Emmanuel. And a lot of then are now deciding on Bolingbroke (I can only speak from my experience at Belleville where the kids who wanted to go to Whitgift, Dulwich etc generally got in). I'm sure a lot of them were tutored but I certainly know of one boy who went to Alleyns who wasn't tutored at all.
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livegreen
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby livegreen » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:08 pm

Nortcoteluvvie - you are indeed dealing with anecdotes and not facts.

The bright state children will attempt go to the state grammers and Graveney (more difficult academically to get into than the independent day schools).
The bright children from either state or private school will then aim to head to the Wimbledon Schools (Kings and Wimb HS), Putney Girls schools, the Dulwich Schools, Jags, Alleyns, Dulwich etc in the same order and with the same success depending on how bright they are and how they have been tutored.
Finally they will have a back up - often Emmanual. Streatham & Clapham etc.
Obviously if you have paid £100k + you want to believe that you have an advantage and maybe you do but it is no gaurantee. Anecdotally the independent day schools would prefer to have a state primary child than a prep pupil who perform equally well - you have explained the reasons why.
Just because you go to state at primary does not mean you do not understand the system and how it works or the hierachy of the different schools. Everyone around here is very well informed.

The only difference that you seem to be saying is that those who struggle academically at an independent prep will be pushed into an unsuitable secondary school as that is what they have been trained for. Not a good outcome.
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NorthcoteLuvvie
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby NorthcoteLuvvie » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:13 pm

The bright state children will attempt go to the state grammers and Graveney (more difficult academically to get into than SOME independent day schools).

I know we are all dealing with anecdotal info here but Westminster and st Paul's are harder to get into than Wilson's and Waalington etc :D
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schoolgatesmum
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby schoolgatesmum » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:18 pm

Yes Northcote, state school children even go to St Pauls! My friend's son is at St Pauls and she's thinking of sending her younger son to Bolingbroke. Make of that what you will......
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Affluent Parent
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Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby Affluent Parent » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:23 pm

Its the poor kids whose parents can't afford the fees of a prep but who are just normal who won't get in.
.....

My poor, poor kids!
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