VAT a big fee mistake!

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Surpr1se
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VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby Surpr1se » Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:18 pm

Apologies in advance for the moan.  Labour will win the election, and Bridget Phillipson will implement her VAT plan.  It's popular with voters on the grounds of fairness, not economics (apparently).

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/voter ... ct-3102933

So what could be wrong with it?

1. It's being rolled out in a stupid way.  Some people are paying fees several years in advance, with many schools offering such schemes.  While there's a theoretical risk the government or HMRC stops this,

a) they're paying before Labour gets elected,
b) Labour has said nothing to discourage them, and
c) the shadow cabinet seems unable to even describe the policy consistently.

I have no faith that such people will be pursued.  Across all schools, I'd guess that hundreds of millions of GBP of fees are being prepaid in this way.  (£10bn is spent each year, if just 1% of parents prepay 3 years' fees each that's c. £300m).

If the public wants "fairness", this isn't it.

2. They're applying all 20% at once!  Several negative consequences:

a) School bursars do not have enough time to reduce costs efficiently & effectively.  Their main cost is staff, and redundancy rounds are painful and expensive.  It's most efficient to wait for people to retire or move on, but that takes time.  Ditto switching pension scheme, or selling property, or other things they might do.  So they either burn cash to ease the transition, or give parents a massive fee hike (on top of what they've already had last year).

b) Labour has sown panic and alienated many (most?) fee paying parents before they've even won the election.  Is this clever?  I know we're only 6% of parents but really?  

c) Many/most parents won't realistically be able to find decent state school places at short notice.  We looked at a local comprehensive, rated outstanding.  I took my son there for an assessment morning.  The teachers were fine (albeit stressed by badly behaved children) and most children behaved fine.  But within the space of 3 hours, several children (probably from the same primary school) had started calling other children p*ki, making other racist comments, and calling out other children for their weight.  That's at age 11 - they'll likely graduate to worse things in time, making life miserable for many other children...unsurprisingly, I'll be stumping up the VAT to keep my son in private school.

The impact on children moved from private to state will be seriously damaging in many cases.  Very sad.

d) To add to the ridiculousness, Labour is refusing to deny that VAT might happen mid year.  Will schools' finance systems be ready to collect VAT by then?  I doubt it (smaller schools mightn't have decent systems and of course they've never had to charge VAT on fees before).

3. It's based on a seriously flaky paper from the IFS:

a) apparently 3-7% of children will move out of the independent sector.  This seems seriously doubtful.  Enrolments are down 2.7% this academic year, and subsequent years will only see bigger numbers.  We don't know how big, because it's all being done suddenly.

b) it assumes parents saving money on school fees will spend the savings on VAT-able goods in the UK.  No foreign holidays, no spending on food (which is zero-rated for VAT), no saving the money or paying down pensions, and no using it to buy property (taxed much less than 20%).  If any of these things happen, the tax won't raise what the IFS thinks it might.

c) it ignores things like disincentives to work for parents who move to the state sector, and reduces the attractiveness of the UK as a place for high earners to come (big cost to HMRC as 28% of all income tax is paid by the top 1%).

Moan over.  If you got this far, then thank you for putting up with this!

In fairness, some things I agree with:

i. Private schools could probably make considerable savings over time.  Some of the fees are spent in daft ways, and they've gone up a lot.  In the past, parents probably weren't brave enough to challenge this.  No more.

ii. The state system needs more money.  I'm not sure this tax will generate any, not least as it seems to be based on a flaky IFS paper, but I understand the theory.  Better to put up income tax or whatever.
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Daddyandpa
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby Daddyandpa » Wed Jun 12, 2024 12:11 pm

My heart bleeds for little Emily and Charlie having to move from their bubble into the real world. Tiny violin.
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ronangel
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby ronangel » Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:46 pm

Contact labour candidate when announced and tell them you will not be voting for them if this is not withdrawn before the election.
Might be better after being also let down by the conservatives in so many ways to Vote for The Reform party
which seems to be picking up in popularity and has some good ideas.Vat on private schools not one of them!
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supergirl
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby supergirl » Thu Jun 13, 2024 2:20 pm

Ask your school if
You can pay the reminder of the years in fees before the election so they cant charge you VAT. Also you may be able to
Negotiate a discount since you re paying in full.
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ronangel
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby ronangel » Thu Jun 13, 2024 3:50 pm

Much less complicated if it was not there as now!
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readysteadycook
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby readysteadycook » Thu Jun 13, 2024 4:37 pm

Typical Labour policy of envy.

With all the parents applying to the Councils for a state place admissions@wandsworth.gov.uk (whether they want it or not); it’s going to cause chaos and stop some children getting their preferred state school. Many south London schools are now oversubscribed already.

Everyone who has children in private school must not vote Labour, time to look at some Independent candidates.

Maybe one of our local MP’s the Labour candidate Rosena Khan will make a statement on this - but I bet she won’t as she sits on the fence for all issues.
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onthecommon
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby onthecommon » Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:32 pm

45 million people registered to vote in the uk.
Less than 1 million people have children in private education - the majority of these are Tory voters.

Do not think your vote withdrawal from Labour will have an impact.

I do hope our Labour Candidates/ Councillors have read the VAT threads here, including the despicable behaviour being encouraged and continue with this policy and then next remove the nonsensical charitable status these elite establishment enjoy.
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readysteadycook
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby readysteadycook » Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:07 pm

onthecommon wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:32 pm 45 million people registered to vote in the uk.
Less than 1 million people have children in private education - the majority of these are Tory voters.

Do not think your vote withdrawal from Labour will have an impact.

I do hope our Labour Candidates/ Councillors have read the VAT threads here, including the despicable behaviour being encouraged and continue with this policy and then next remove the nonsensical charitable status these elite establishment enjoy.
Why are you so angry about this?

Why would you want to dumb down the whole education system to the lowest common denominator ? 

Do you think it’s a coincidence that the 7% that are privately educated, end up in the top jobs, running companies and the country ? 
 
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onthecommon
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby onthecommon » Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:27 pm

Not angry at all with the policy - total support from me. :D :D

Disappointed with the response of those trying to encourage poor behaviour - awful examples to all our young people.
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justanothervotingscam
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby justanothervotingscam » Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:08 pm

it's very obvious they are never going to raise those amounts, let alone find 6,500 science teachers ready to go !

and the money raised will go to the government's coffers to be spent as and when, the chances of it being reinvested in struggling state secondary school are very very low.

the whole thing reminds me of the NHS promise written on the Brexit Bus ! has the NHS ever seen that money ??? nops ! they did get the silly votes !
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Cougar
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby Cougar » Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:54 am

Omg! I certainly wouldn’t want any of your your offspring in the top jobs with your attitude!
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Joe1999
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby Joe1999 » Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:01 am

We’ve arrange for the grandparents to pay the fees in advance. There’s a chance the VAT will be charged anyway but there is an IHT saving which is greater. Another reason this is a bad idea as the wealthier will save even more and it’s the middle classes that suffer.
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Scottov
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby Scottov » Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:15 am

onthecommon wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:32 pm 45 million people registered to vote in the uk.
Less than 1 million people have children in private education - the majority of these are Tory voters.

Do not think your vote withdrawal from Labour will have an impact.

I do hope our Labour Candidates/ Councillors have read the VAT threads here, including the despicable behaviour being encouraged and continue with this policy and then next remove the nonsensical charitable status these elite establishment enjoy.

Policies like this will always stoke the illinformed, and dredge up the worst in people

A couple of things

1. Bursars have already been cutting costs, for years, most of these schools are barely solvent
2. Fees in advance schemes have been in place for decades
3. Bursaries at 20%+ are common place through the industry. That doesn’t mean 20% of students, it’s more like 50% of students (minimum) are getting a discount; they’re already paying maximum of what they can afford
4. London day schools are not the industry
5. Charitable status is nigh on worthless. Over 20% of ISc schools no longer operate under it because it carries more burden than benefit

Of course I don’t expect you to understand but it’s still worth saying
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funandfrolics
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby funandfrolics » Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:38 am

onthecommon wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:32 pm 45 million people registered to vote in the uk.
Less than 1 million people have children in private education - the majority of these are Tory voters.

Do not think your vote withdrawal from Labour will have an impact.

I do hope our Labour Candidates/ Councillors have read the VAT threads here, including the despicable behaviour being encouraged and continue with this policy and then next remove the nonsensical charitable status these elite establishment enjoy.

I agree with you. I dont think any of this is going to change Labour's intentions. However, I dont think we should be nasty about parents not wanting to pay VAT on education.

The VAT is not going to change people getting stupid salaries in banking, or being successful in their business or inheriting money. It is life and the alternative (communism) has not worked so far. 

People are free to do whatever they like with their money and personally, I find it a lot more noble to spend it in your kids education than a fancy car or house. I know partners from my company who live in a mansion near a grammar school and send their kids to a state funded school (which we all pay for), who have had plenty of tutorial support (they have tons of spare change) and will get first into the top Unis as they dont come from the private system. 

Rich people will ALWAYS make sure they send their kids to the best schools. Because they make sure they live in the best neighbourhoods. Because they will complain to the headteacher if they dont do a good job. Because they will write to their MP if there is crime. Accept it. 

On the other hand, I have seen people with normal salaries in London, living in a very average size home, driving a very average car but spending most of their salaries in their kids' education. 

I myself am from this second front. I cannot think of a better way to spend my money. I cannot think of a better inheritance for my kids than the best education.

Parents who send their kids to private school save the tax payer's money on education. They same with private health. Yet, I am more than happy to pay taxes so that state schools and the NHS are as good as possible in case, one day, me or my husband lose our jobs. 

As for VAT, fine. If they want to remove the charitable status, so be it. But then I don't want to finance bursaries or scholarships, sorry. Happy to do so if it is a charity but not if it is a business. I dont see any Porsche drivers sponsoring a Porsche for me to enjoy. 

Why should my hard earned salary finance the fees of kids who, according to the rest of the country, have perfectly great schools in the state system. Will private schools become more elitist? You bet. At the moment, at my kids' schools more than 50% of kids receive bursaries. But hey, if Labour and Labour supporters do not see the value in it, why should I?
 
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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

Postby StatetilEighteen » Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:55 am

Hard dislike for the snobby attitudes displayed towards state schools by original poster and the blasé ill-informed comment as to why private school kids end up 'running the country".
Yes because their education is so much better.
That's definitely the reason.
Please check your self-reinforcing privilege.

I'll share this anecdote from a good friend, a professor in a sought-after subject at a sought-after RG uni who remarks she has for some time employed her own internal Alevel 2- grade adjustment to account for spoon-fed over-taught private school kids who often disappoint.
But yes their education is definitely better!

But no you keep telling yourself how much better a product you're getting for your money.

London Day schools are not the Industry but private equity seems happy to buy them.

The idea that you should not pay tax for this already-inflated over-priced luxury good is quite at odds with how valuable you seem to think it is, no?
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