SW11 car fines from a local cyclist's camera Post Reply

[SW11_Cycle]

Hello Everyone
I know that social media discussions around cycling and motorists can be controversial so please do take this post in the spirit it's meant.

That is to say I want to make our roads safer for everyone.

The law has recently changed and now motorists have to give priority to cyclists and also give them a 1.5 metre gap when passing.

The Met Police have also made it very easy for cyclists to upload their camera footage to them and they'll then send out a prosecution notice on the basis of that footage.

It's typically three/six points and £100.

I cycle to work every day and almost every other day I've submitted footage of drivers between the commons or around Clapham Common who are driving badly and so far in March five of those submissions have come back with notice of prosecutions so they'll have to do a course or get a fine and three/six points. I'm waiting on the others, none have been rejected.

The reason I wanted to post is that the offenders probably don't realise what they've done wrong.

My last submission that resulted in a 'Notice of Prosecution' was my cycling down one of the narrow roads BTC where there isn't room for two cars to pass side by side.

These roads are so narrow that if you cycle towards a cyclist and don't give way you've committed an offence because you'll be closer than 1.5m.

A Mercedes estate on the school run started down the road towards me when I was already cycling down it. They passed me and beeped when I didn't move over.

From her perspective I'm sure she saw a cyclist who should have moved over, from my perspective I don't have to move but more importantly it's not safe for me to get close to the parked cars on the side as I could get "doored".

She will now have a £100 fine and three/six points.

As a cyclist I'll be as flexible as I can but please do be aware that you need to treat cyclists as though they were the size of a car otherwise you could end up with points and it's so easy for us to report you we'll probably do just that.

I reckon I'm responsible for 15 points and £500 in fines on just those I've heard from which is a lot for such a small area.

A bike user

[Clapham]

That’s interesting to know, thanks. All guidance I can see online refers to overtaking not passing.

Linked to that, if a cyclist enters a narrow street after a driver going in the opposite direction, is the cyclist breaking the law if they don’t give way? What is a driver meant to do in that situation?

[Anonymous100]

I wonder if this poster is as concerned about full on road vigilantism as I am. Whilst I agree that safety is always paramount. As a London pedestrian, I’m more concerned about the hoards and hoards of cyclists and scooters who speed through every red light they see, than cars, which normally stop for you. I wonder if cars like taxis who have dash cams will start dobbing cyclists in too like this. It seems so sad to post like this on a public forum, and to spend your free time revelling in shopping people in!

[MumofTwoHere]

How can cyclists be identified though? I have the same concerns as you- they scare me when they speed past through red lights or on pavements, especially when I’m out with my children.

I’m also going to encourage my husband to get a dash cam as it seems like he may need to be able to defend himself. He’s a very careful driver yet this vigilantism worries me, especially given a snippet of a video may not show the whole story.

[NoodleFan]

As a non-cyclist I’m taking this post in the spirit it’s intended - there are a lot of huge vehicles which must be very intimidating when they’re headed straight for you.

However, I have to agree with the above posts - some cyclists do not help their cause by frequently going through red lights. As a pedestrian (which I am more often than a driver) this is also very scary.

Don’t get me started on e scooters…

[Motherofiandh]

How about us as a pedestrian. Do I now need to wear a body camera and report every single cyclist going through a red light or speeding in the 20 zones? I am sure I will score more points and penalties than you. Oh wait a minute , how can we identify those offending cyclists???

I am also a car driver. How about those scenario when I was stationary or moving very slowly ( the usual in London !) and there’s absolutely no space on my left and those cyclists thought they can work magic and squeeze past me?

Anyway my issue in this topic /post is there is always two sides of the story and just giving penalties out based on a video footage from one side is a joke.

[uptheoctave]

Maybe it's an April Fools gag? Look at the date/time of it being posted! (Hope so anyway). 

[SW11_Cycle]

Hi
OP here - at least I hope I am as I posted as a guest so I hope this reply works.

It's not an April fool and thank you for taking this in the spirit intended.

To answer the questions below as far as I know:

1. Linked to that, if a cyclist enters a narrow street after a driver going in the opposite direction, is the cyclist breaking the law if they don’t give way? What is a driver meant to do in that situation?

Answer: I'm not sure about this but I think the road hierarchy means that if you are in a situation where there is a potential crash then it will always be the car that has to give way. In the same way that if a pedestrian crossed the street in front of your car you wouldn't be allowed to run them down and cite "you had right of way as a defence". This is controversial I know and I suspect that in this situation there wouldn't be any points or fines given - but you would be expected to defer to the bike/pedestrian/horse.

2. "However, I have to agree with the above posts - some cyclists do not help their cause by frequently going through red lights. As a pedestrian (which I am more often than a driver) this is also very scary."

Agree - there are many many many bad cyclists out there. The cold reality is that cyclists very rarely kill other road users. They invariably are usually the victims. So car users tend to be cross that cyclists are "getting away with breaking the rules" whereas cyclists every day feel "that car almost killed me" I think this goes to the heart of the animosity between certain road users and bike users. The road users feel the cyclists don't obey the rules (and they are often right) but the cyclists can't work out why the car users are making a fuss about the odd red light that hasn't hurt anyone when frequently die on London's roads (and they are often right).

There is a *thing* on Youtube where once a case has progressed to court and the road user has been fined then it's ok to post footage on social media and there are channels dedicated to such videos. If I can work out a way to anonymise the cars then I'll do that. I don't want to embarrass anyone so I'll ensure people aren't identifiable but I honestly reckon most people just aren't aware of the rules.

Thank you everyone for taking this an intended.

[Medicalmam]

Hi, thank you for the post. This is really interesting reading. Having done a quick google I think this is a genuine post, not an April fools but I am happy to stand corrected.

I am primarily a cyclist but also a driver so I am interested in your interpretation of these rules. In the many narrow, but long, roads around the area cars will often start down towards each other in the hope of spotting a passing place and if they end up meeting one will reverse. I completely appreciate it is not wise to even start down a road if you can’t see a passing place but it happens often and is (usually) resolved amicably with no fines. In this scenario, are you suggesting that cars should never start down a road if there is a bike there? Hypothetically, if they meet and the car was to reverse would this make it acceptable? I’m honestly just trying to learn to ensure I drive within the law. As a cyclist, I don’t mind when cars come towards me as long as they move over and/ or stop, depending on how narrow the road is, when we meet.
Thanks for clarifying.

[Clapham]

Medicalmam, that was my concern too. I cannot find any guidance anywhere online regarding cars passing cyclists in the opposite direction ie not when overtaking, so if the need to allow 1.5m is genuinely there in that case, even if the car driver was on the road first, then this needs to be clarified before drivers are given points. I am not convinced that that is how the rules of the road are meant to work though and would expect cyclists and drivers to work fairly and find passing points, just as two drivers would seek to do. As I understand it, as a pedestrian, I now have priority to cross a road but I would never expect a whole stream of traffic to stop just so I can cross a road when I could wait a minute and look for a suitable gap.

If this uploading of videos is happening across the country, then surely cyclists need to be registered with number plates, or an equivalent, so that everyone is treated fairly and drivers or cyclists who are acting illegally should be equally punished. As a pedestrian, I feel more unsafe around cyclists than cars, as I see so many more cyclists going through red lights or being on their phones, yet there seems no way to track cyclists breaking the law.

[SW11_Cycle]

Hi
Happy to clarify and I'm not an expert but this is based on what I am seeing.

The question "are you suggesting that cars should never start down a road if there is a bike there?" is really interesting.

This is my understanding of the rules and I submitted an SW11 video with exactly this situation a few weeks ago and the driver is going to be prosecuted so it looks like it is the right understanding:

1. If you come to a street with cars on both sides and there is a cyclist already pedalling towards you then you have a decision to make

2. if you choose to start down the road but in doing so you are going to push the cyclist closer than 1.5 metres to the parked cars OR closer than 1.5 metres of your car as you pass (and this is almost always going to happen on our narrow roads) then you're forcing the cyclist to take evasive action and you'll be prosecuted if there is video footage

3. you COULD argue that the cyclist should move over, after all it looks like there is room for you both, but there actually isn't. If the cyclist moves too close to the parked cars they could get "doored" and when you pass them head on there is almost no way there'll be a 1.5 metre gap between you and that's the space required by law.

How this works in practice is interesting as it means that car users will have to wait and if it's one of the long narrow uphill roads from, say, Northcote Road to Bollingbroke, then that could be a while. Obviously if there are passing places then it'll be fine for the car to pull in and wait for the cyclists to pass.

For the question "then surely cyclists need to be registered with number plates, or an equivalent, so that everyone is treated fairly" I don't think this will happen.

There is a general practical approach that for road users who are most at risk of death (pedestrians, horse riders, cyclists) then we don't need to identify them as they don't actually cause that many fatalities and for road users who do the killing (lorry, car, bus) then we should be able to track those down.

I think that's a practical response otherwise we'd spend a fortune on bicycle number plates and tracking systems for very little improvement in road safety. Again I'm not saying there aren't bad cyclists, there are, just that with limited budgets governments will tend to target issues where they'll get the most safety improvements for their spend.

[Starr]

I recently met a cyclist on one of the roads BTC while driving. He was a young chap in lycra on a Saturday. He started waving his first at me and shaking his head. I frequently cycle too and only drive when I really have to and my car is an electric vehicle. I'm very pro-cycling. But I'm very puzzled by the aggression and being aggressed while in my car for simply driving along at a low speend , simply spotting a cyclist just as he enters the road and then facing his ire before I have any chance to react.
I don't know what can be done about the entitled behaviour when rules seem to imply that anyone in a car is automatically at fault?!

[SW11_Cycle]

"I don't know what can be done about the entitled behaviour when rules seem to imply that anyone in a car is automatically at fault?!"

I know. I am not at all saying that cyclists are in the right. But the reason for flagging this is that it seems that the law means that you're going to have to give priority to cyclists in all circumstances. The advice I give is to assume that all cyclists are large SUVs and then it's hard to get it wrong. As in we wouldn't drive car down a narrow road when there is an SUV on it already, wouldn't overtake an SUV on Bolingbroke Road etc etc

[Dickyd]

I have to admit at being more than just incensed by this post. I would certainly challenge any NOP that I received that was taken by a cyclist. I am also horrified that the Met Police seem to ENCOURAGE this activity by cyclists by providing a portal for them to upload videos/photos. What gives you the right to attempt to sit in judgement? Are you authorised or have any official training to act as you are? The answer has to be NO on all counts. You pay nothing to use the road and yet in some areas you even have a part of it sectioned off for you and god help the driver of any motorised vehicle if they happen to wander into this 'space'!
To conclude, I am very pleased that I don't know you (SW11_Cycle) as I fear I would be having a little more that just a few words with you. Disgraceful!
 

[SW11_Cycle]

Hi
As before happy to take the questions in order:

1. " I would certainly challenge any NOP that I received that was taken by a cyclist."

Absolutely. This is your right to do so. But an FYI if you challenge and then are found guilty, the points typically are upped to 5/6 and fines up to four figures. If you google "land-rover-driver-fined-for-reckless-pass-as-cyclist-falls-into-ditch" for ITV news there is a nice story there.

if he had accepted the original notice he'd be much better off

2. " I am also horrified that the Met Police seem to ENCOURAGE this activity by cyclists by providing a portal for them to upload videos/photos."

Yes you're right. Law enforcement professionals do tend to encourage members of the public to support them.

3. "What gives you the right to attempt to sit in judgement? Are you authorised or have any official training to act as you are?"

This is a really important point and I'm glad you brought it up.

We have no authority whatsoever. What we do is simply to report that an offence may have been caused and then upload evidence. Then a trained person will watch the footage and make a judgement call.

4. "You pay nothing to use the road and yet in some areas you even have a part of it sectioned off for you and god help the driver of any motorised vehicle if they happen to wander into this 'space'!"

You're right in that we don't pay anything to use the road but neither do horse or pedestrians. In the UK we attach the costs proportionate to those that use the resources most and cars/lorries exact a big toll on our roads and their surfaces.

5. "I am very pleased that I don't know you (SW11_Cycle) as I fear I would be having a little more that just a few words with you. Disgraceful!"

This is a really interesting point. On the one hand I think that what has been a calm and hopefully positive discussion about road safety now has a threat of violence attached to it and it's from the car user to the cyclist. This is why many cyclists are in favour of strict legal protection against car users because you to tend to want to hurt us. It may not have been your intention but I'm not entirely sure that your comment helped your argument.

Thanks for posting and I'm seriously trying to be helpful here.