Benaldo, can I just say that from my part your posts have been clear and polite and I think you apologised amply for the initial "Sexist" comment. I personally think that the last few rather aggressive posts against you were a little unnecessary.

I personally agree with you and would love to see a less "pink" website...

Others might not agree - but everyone is entitled to an opinion !

Peace to all - Its Christmas !!

I'm tired of defending myself as if I've made a personal attack on Annabel, or that I've pointed out something incredibly rude, so this is me done with this. If - despite the majority of people commenting here supporting a change of colour and a rethink on the odd bit of wording - the site wants to stick to the same branding that supports the gender inequality that sees mums getting the short end of the stick in so many areas of life, then go for it! But gender inequality is important to me and many other people posting here, so I'm proud to be 'some kind of activist'.

I keep saying I really like the site's content and conversations, and I obviously have nothing at all against Annabel - I don't know her!
Annabel - I'm really sorry if you've read any of this and taken it personally. That has not at all been my intention.

The majority of people replying here have agreed with me, but a vocal and very negative minority want me and this point to just go away. Some of those people are reacting very sensitively and very personally when what I'm saying is clearly not personal. If you can't read or think beyond super-sensitive and defensive reactions then please don't lay into me with unfair and unpleasant comments, many of them, like it or not, sexist.

Of course I understand that those who run the site can do whatever they want with it, I just thought that as Annabel had commented earlier she might do so again. Me thinking that doesn't make me a bad person, which it feels like I'm being made out to be. Do please give me a break.

If you're hacked off that I'm posting here then just unsubscribe from notifications on this thread. And maybe stop commenting yourself.

And finally - I've been quoting people's own posts because I don't know another way to tag people so they can see I've taken the time to reply to what they've said in response to what I've said. I thought that was being polite. Hey ho.

Happy christmas everyone.

For what it's worth I'm with MM and Petal. After all I'm a bloke, have pushed my fair share of prams and like pink. Maybe I'm conflicted? But this post is so over.

@muminsw12 that is a fair point and it does change the dynamic a lot. If for example this was initiated by Annabel who was thinking about rebranding the site and then went about asking everyone's opinions on it, it would be a very different matter.

I think it's worth pointing out that a number of the responses on here have been from women posting after specifically being asked by Annabel for our views.

@MM: why are you so aggressive? The last one was just plain rude and not necessary. You are wasting space for a very interesting debate and I too LOVE this site. Despite the Paris attacks, we still live in a democraty with freedom of speech but really this aggressivity is making me very uncomfortable.

Yes Benaldo's first post was not great but he has apologised for it a lot so can you move on? I dont know who he is but i dislike when someone has made a mistake, has admitted it and apologised for it and it is still not enough for a minority of very aggressive people.

Seriously? Are we not all aware that this site was created and being ran by a woman and very successfully? Does this fact not send a stronger message about gender stereotypes than the retro logo?
Am I the only feeling uncomfortable about a man telling a woman she is doing it wrong, she is not empowering mums in the area, she is actually contributing to sexism. Here Annabel, here is how to run your business. We can even chip in if you want. All for the sake of equality.

mungomuffit wrote:I assume this is an attempt to "bump" your thread because it had died... so I probably shouldn't fall into the trap...

It was incredibly rude of you to have made your first post a very strong criticism of what is a brilliant website, stating that it is sexist. You would do well to acknowledge the hard work that Annabel and the team do to provide us with a valuable FREE local resource that we are so lucky to have. Perhaps after being a member of the community for a while you could have made some constructive and positive criticism. As it was, you have gone about it the wrong way and you got the response you deserved.

So, I've said it privately, but I take this opportunity to publicly say a huge Thank you to Annabel and the team and I'm sorry that you have had to put up with some rather rude comments on here!

Not trying to bump, but there were a lot of comments, a lot supportive of a different approach, and it seems important that doesn't just drift off into the ether. I've said many times that this is a brilliant site, full of useful information and resources, but that it is dated and promotes gender inequality.

Annabel, and whoever else works on the site, are doing and have clearly done a brilliant job in getting it up, running and vibrant, and I hope people can see that I'm not here to claim that isn't true and extremely valuable. I'm not, and I think you know that. I'm not surprised people are defensive about a site that is well-loved, and the person who created it (also well-loved!).

So please just take the issue I'm raising, and that so many other posters here have agreed with (scroll on to pages 4 and 5), in the most positive spirit you can. This isn't just asking about a handyman, or a cafe recommendation - this is an extremely important topic. So yes, bumped, there we are.

(actually, much more than half...)

Annabel (admin) wrote:Hello everyone
Thank you so much for all the comments on this thread.

There are a number of really really important and interesting questions raised here and I'd love to reply to them right now but I am out tonight and want to reply in a reasoned manner.

Putting aside, however, any NVN specifics can we please please please keep this conversation friendly?

I haven't had to lock any threads in December so far and I'd hate for this to be the first of the Xmas season!

Thank you, as always, for using NVN!

Hi Annabel
So there have been lots of comments from a number of different people, and doing a quick count I see at least a dozen (more than half) of those who've commented agree that a rebrand that made the site more gender-neutral would be a good thing for a more gender-equal society and therefore less sexism towards women.
What do you think?
I really like the site, get a lot of useful information and connections from it, but like many others I think the pinkness and mumsiness is now unhelpfully out of date.
Keen to hear your thoughts!
many thanks
B
B

mungomuffit wrote:No, you are totally out of line. Go and "neck a few pints", as you put it, put your Superman outfit on and climb up Tower Bridge.

This, is incredibly rude.

Full marks to Benaldo for raising this important topic, and patiently and politely responding to a wide variety of responses. NVN is a great site that I have found useful reading for a number of years, and I do understand how it historically ended up making the assumption everyone interested in childcare locally is a woman. But it is 2015 and now the topic has been raised it is clear it is time for a change. This is not to say that men are in some way "hard-done-by" by this sexist assumption (yes it is sexist, even if - as its often the case - unintentionally). As a man I agree with some of the earlier comments that while we have made great progress on gender equality, many areas of life are still unfairly stacked in my favour. Quite the opposite to being hard-done-by, Benaldo is pointing out that the branding and the language is reinforcing a gender stereotype (that woman do the childcare) that is part of what sustains sexism against women in the workplace. This is something I also feel strongly about and definitely vote for a change - I am happy to chip in for a graphic designer to come up with a new logo if that's what it takes.

Just adding in my thoughts as a long time user:
I absolutely love this website too, and am probably on it every day. It has changed and grown over the years and I think it is an excellent idea to review consider and make changes as time and attitudes change, so big respect and thank you for asking for our opinions. BUT you can never please all the people all the time, or even some of the people some of the time.
I see it as a mine of information for all things "local". My kids are older, so I like the fact that it isn't just babies and toddlers.
I notice the "heated debates" but have said on a number of occasions, "that's it no more NVN" because of the really horrible nastiness and rudeness that can come out, but I suppose that is the social media age, and something I have to be aware of to help my children deal with it. It does put me off posting on a lot of matters though, and I have probably read this post through 10 times in case there is something that someone will find offensive and slate me publicly, I just hate that side of all this.
Personally I don't read anything into the pinkness or logo (it seems retro vintage style to me), but maybe that's because the content (which I know about as a longtime user) is why I am here, and the name is good. Appealing to new users is a different matter. BTW - the Mumsnet logo is a take on the old Charlie's Angels TV show image which had 3 girls with guns, answering to an older faceless man, so make of that what you will! (I am that old)
The cheap kitchens stuff is really really annoying - there must be a way to block that surely?!

We have a Dad as a class rep - BUT one of the Mums sent an email to start a "Mums Only" class email list! What's she going to discuss that is mums only? Nail polish? Periods?! It means my wife gets a whole bunch of school emails that I don't get. Admittedly it's mostly nonsense from stay at home mums seemingly with not enough to do all day (sorry but I'm being honest!), but it's annoying for me as occasionally there is an useful/important piece of info that I don't get, purely based on gender!

Fascinating how this mother thought the Dads are too busy working to read these emails, and the Mums are not. In our family, the opposite is the case...

I LOVE this site because it is local and full of brilliant tips: thanks to posters over the years, I found a first-class gardener, plumber, tennis coach for my kids, personal trainer, babysitter, biscuit maker... I got fab ideas for kids and adults' birthday venues, presents, skiing holidays, camping trips, restaurants and so much more. Not to mention the second-hand clothes and equipment. It's an absolute godsend, especially as I work full-time and do not have a huge amount of time to spend at the school gates. Using this site, I feel as well informed as if I had attended a coffee morning!

But I've been reading this thread with interest as I would also welcome a rebranding of the logo and generally a less pink site!

Finally, (and possibly off-topic) something that always surprised me since my children have been attending school is the expectation that the class rep will be one of the Mums (with her husband organising a couple of "curry nights" for the other dads). The weekly email updates from the class reps about what the kids are up to the following week/ what to pack for clubs/ outings etc. are only sent to Mums (and the odd divorced dad). Personally, I've always found that pretty sexist.