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Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by Euroqueen » Tue Jun 18, 2024 12:11 pm

Wow Terrier_London... Just wow...

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by uttershambles » Tue Jun 18, 2024 12:02 pm

Omg Terrier_London. You sound truly awful and as out of touch as Sunak was with his "no Sky as a child" comment...

"We here can afford it", "the cost of living crisis has barely been felt here", "we still go skiing once or twice a year" (my children have never been skiing and neither have I... ) "We all drive 4x4"... I don't... People like you give this area a bad name... Please speak for yourself. Not "we here"... We are not a homogeneous group.

"I here" can't afford to take my kids skiing - I'm ok with it as I chose to invest money in their education instead. "I here" don't drive a 4x4. "I here" feel the pain of rising cost of living, every day and big time. "I here" don't have broad shoulders and can't afford to pay addition extra. I just chose to make sacrifices because I believe good education is the most important thing j can give my kids.

I actually find your post incredibly upsetting

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by Scottov » Tue Jun 18, 2024 11:04 am

Terrier_London wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:35 am It's not a big mistake.

We should help narrow the gap between public and private schools. We here can afford to.

Just take a step back and consider the rest of the country. We live in our little bubble in Nappy Valley, and the cost of living crisis has barely been noticed here. We still ski once or twice a year. Most of us have one or two kids at private school. We drive 4x4s. We have it really good. But that shouldn't come increasingly at the expense of those less fortunate. 

I think we need to recognise we have broader shoulders and could pay more tax. I support paying more taxes to improve social services and national infrastructure. Labour are going to win in my constituency anyway, as they have done for the last few elections, so doesn't matter too much what I do.

The answer certainly is to vote Reform or any of the other fascist dog whistle parties. Give your heard a wobble if you think that's a sensible vote.

 

Levelling down is an insane idea.

Which is what narrowing the gap by knobbling the best education system in the world is.

It’s not Finland, it’s not China and it’s not India - they have the best state education; the best quality secondary education in the world is the British Independent sector

Succumbing to silly voices on this subject is asinine

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by Terrier_London » Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:35 am

It's not a big mistake.

We should help narrow the gap between public and private schools. We here can afford to.

Just take a step back and consider the rest of the country. We live in our little bubble in Nappy Valley, and the cost of living crisis has barely been noticed here. We still ski once or twice a year. Most of us have one or two kids at private school. We drive 4x4s. We have it really good. But that shouldn't come increasingly at the expense of those less fortunate. 

I think we need to recognise we have broader shoulders and could pay more tax. I support paying more taxes to improve social services and national infrastructure. Labour are going to win in my constituency anyway, as they have done for the last few elections, so doesn't matter too much what I do.

The answer certainly is to vote Reform or any of the other fascist dog whistle parties. Give your heard a wobble if you think that's a sensible vote.

 

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by Scottov » Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:22 am

uttershambles wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:03 am I agree with many previous posters. My school is always proud to point out that 50% of its students don't pay full fees. There are lots of kids on either full bursaries or significant bursaries. On top of it, we are often asked to donate to the bursary fund which many people do and the school has a number of fundraising activities throughout the year to support their bursary fund. I'm sorry but, if we have to pay 20% extra, I no longer can or want to finance and contribute towards these bursaries. The whole point is that these 20% are supposed to make state schools better, right? So there should be no need for private school bursary funded places anymore. Something has to give. Surely, even the most hardened supporters of this scheme wouldn't expect any bursaries to continue. I think the whole situation is very reminiscent of the Brexit shambles and will. end in a similar fashion, where there are no winners and everyone will be a loser

You are, of course correct.

However, the additional donations to fund bursaries are not the only way that full fee payers subsidise worthy pupils with bursaries.

Simply it’s the aggregation of fees at different rates of collection.

So for example if fees are £1,000 per term and 50 pupils pay £600 and 50 pupils pay £1,000 you have total fee income of £80,000 or a total bursary rate of 20% with total fees per pupil of £800 per head

So your child pays £1,000 but only £800 is available for the operating model

That’s how you fund bursaries

The idea that those 50 pupils paying £600 can suddenly find an additional 20% VAT is for the birds. Not going to happen

So that additional 20% Vat will be levied on the gross fee base I.e. £20,000 will have to be paid to HMRC

In this scenario the 50 fee payers at 100% will no longer need to pay £1,000 per term they will need to pay £1,400 (a 40% increase) to maintain the same fee rate

I.e
Bursary pupils £30,000
Full fee pupils £70,000
Vat (20,000)
Retained school income £80,000

Which is the same as before

This policy measure is ridiculous. And even if the VAT is only leveraged on the net reduced fee rate for the bursary pupils then it’s open to manipulation which HMRC won’t like and the burden is still carried by the full fee payers

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by uttershambles » Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:03 am

I agree with many previous posters. My school is always proud to point out that 50% of its students don't pay full fees. There are lots of kids on either full bursaries or significant bursaries. On top of it, we are often asked to donate to the bursary fund which many people do and the school has a number of fundraising activities throughout the year to support their bursary fund. I'm sorry but, if we have to pay 20% extra, I no longer can or want to finance and contribute towards these bursaries. The whole point is that these 20% are supposed to make state schools better, right? So there should be no need for private school bursary funded places anymore. Something has to give. Surely, even the most hardened supporters of this scheme wouldn't expect any bursaries to continue. I think the whole situation is very reminiscent of the Brexit shambles and will. end in a similar fashion, where there are no winners and everyone will be a loser

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by readysteadycook » Mon Jun 17, 2024 1:40 pm

This policy will just reduce the number of free places and bursaries to almost zero. It’s obviously not fair that paying parents subsidise others anymore.

With this Labour policy, The private schools are soon to become the preserve of the very rich. Currently at £20k+ a year, day place, and then add 20%, how many can really afford that anymore.

Private schools will also then not have to share their facilities with state schools or have the other overheads they have with mixing with state schools. That will save the Private schools money, whilst the State school kids will also obviously lose out (along with their larger classes from private school leavers joining them).

So go for it, let’s vote Labour on 4th July and make private schools the preserve of the Uber rich (or m, vote for any independent candidate if you don’t agree with this policy).

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by DavidWT » Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:23 pm

It's a dreadful idea. The unintended consequences will be disastrous for many families, not forgetting the possible closure of many private schools....and where do those kids then go to school if the local state schools are already full?  I feel sorry for the kids here, as well as the hard working mums and dads.  

But a question, and correct me if I am wrong, but if a school becomes a VAT registered business then surely it follows that they can claim the VAT back on all items the school purchases. Schools have to buy a lot of equipment throughout the year, plus carry out refurbs and repairs to their buildings etc. So if this is correct the govt might gain some VAT from school fees but I expect they could lose more than they gain from VAT reclaims.

I'm not accountant and nor have I delved into this in any depth, but that's my understanding. 
 

 

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by Scottov » Mon Jun 17, 2024 11:08 am

StatetilEighteen wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:55 am Hard dislike for the snobby attitudes displayed towards state schools by original poster and the blasé ill-informed comment as to why private school kids end up 'running the country".
Yes because their education is so much better.
That's definitely the reason.
Please check your self-reinforcing privilege.

I'll share this anecdote from a good friend, a professor in a sought-after subject at a sought-after RG uni who remarks she has for some time employed her own internal Alevel 2- grade adjustment to account for spoon-fed over-taught private school kids who often disappoint.
But yes their education is definitely better!

But no you keep telling yourself how much better a product you're getting for your money.

London Day schools are not the Industry but private equity seems happy to buy them.

The idea that you should not pay tax for this already-inflated over-priced luxury good is quite at odds with how valuable you seem to think it is, no?

No

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by Scottov » Mon Jun 17, 2024 11:08 am

funandfrolics wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:38 am
As for VAT, fine. If they want to remove the charitable status, so be it. But then I don't want to finance bursaries or scholarships, sorry. Happy to do so if it is a charity but not if it is a business. I dont see any Porsche drivers sponsoring a Porsche for me to enjoy. 

At the moment, at my kids' schools more than 50% of kids receive bursaries. But hey, if Labour and Labour supporters do not see the value in it, why should I?
 

Good post

You are correct, full fee payers (rare as they are outside of london and the M25) do subsidise bursaries ; and this is because of the demands of charitable status.

And the point about the number of people receiving bursaries is this: they are MEANS TESTED.

So these families are already paying as much as they can afford. There is no additional 20% for them to find, because if they was then they’d be receiving less bursary

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by StatetilEighteen » Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:55 am

Hard dislike for the snobby attitudes displayed towards state schools by original poster and the blasé ill-informed comment as to why private school kids end up 'running the country".
Yes because their education is so much better.
That's definitely the reason.
Please check your self-reinforcing privilege.

I'll share this anecdote from a good friend, a professor in a sought-after subject at a sought-after RG uni who remarks she has for some time employed her own internal Alevel 2- grade adjustment to account for spoon-fed over-taught private school kids who often disappoint.
But yes their education is definitely better!

But no you keep telling yourself how much better a product you're getting for your money.

London Day schools are not the Industry but private equity seems happy to buy them.

The idea that you should not pay tax for this already-inflated over-priced luxury good is quite at odds with how valuable you seem to think it is, no?

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by funandfrolics » Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:38 am

onthecommon wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:32 pm 45 million people registered to vote in the uk.
Less than 1 million people have children in private education - the majority of these are Tory voters.

Do not think your vote withdrawal from Labour will have an impact.

I do hope our Labour Candidates/ Councillors have read the VAT threads here, including the despicable behaviour being encouraged and continue with this policy and then next remove the nonsensical charitable status these elite establishment enjoy.

I agree with you. I dont think any of this is going to change Labour's intentions. However, I dont think we should be nasty about parents not wanting to pay VAT on education.

The VAT is not going to change people getting stupid salaries in banking, or being successful in their business or inheriting money. It is life and the alternative (communism) has not worked so far. 

People are free to do whatever they like with their money and personally, I find it a lot more noble to spend it in your kids education than a fancy car or house. I know partners from my company who live in a mansion near a grammar school and send their kids to a state funded school (which we all pay for), who have had plenty of tutorial support (they have tons of spare change) and will get first into the top Unis as they dont come from the private system. 

Rich people will ALWAYS make sure they send their kids to the best schools. Because they make sure they live in the best neighbourhoods. Because they will complain to the headteacher if they dont do a good job. Because they will write to their MP if there is crime. Accept it. 

On the other hand, I have seen people with normal salaries in London, living in a very average size home, driving a very average car but spending most of their salaries in their kids' education. 

I myself am from this second front. I cannot think of a better way to spend my money. I cannot think of a better inheritance for my kids than the best education.

Parents who send their kids to private school save the tax payer's money on education. They same with private health. Yet, I am more than happy to pay taxes so that state schools and the NHS are as good as possible in case, one day, me or my husband lose our jobs. 

As for VAT, fine. If they want to remove the charitable status, so be it. But then I don't want to finance bursaries or scholarships, sorry. Happy to do so if it is a charity but not if it is a business. I dont see any Porsche drivers sponsoring a Porsche for me to enjoy. 

Why should my hard earned salary finance the fees of kids who, according to the rest of the country, have perfectly great schools in the state system. Will private schools become more elitist? You bet. At the moment, at my kids' schools more than 50% of kids receive bursaries. But hey, if Labour and Labour supporters do not see the value in it, why should I?
 

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by Scottov » Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:15 am

onthecommon wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:32 pm 45 million people registered to vote in the uk.
Less than 1 million people have children in private education - the majority of these are Tory voters.

Do not think your vote withdrawal from Labour will have an impact.

I do hope our Labour Candidates/ Councillors have read the VAT threads here, including the despicable behaviour being encouraged and continue with this policy and then next remove the nonsensical charitable status these elite establishment enjoy.

Policies like this will always stoke the illinformed, and dredge up the worst in people

A couple of things

1. Bursars have already been cutting costs, for years, most of these schools are barely solvent
2. Fees in advance schemes have been in place for decades
3. Bursaries at 20%+ are common place through the industry. That doesn’t mean 20% of students, it’s more like 50% of students (minimum) are getting a discount; they’re already paying maximum of what they can afford
4. London day schools are not the industry
5. Charitable status is nigh on worthless. Over 20% of ISc schools no longer operate under it because it carries more burden than benefit

Of course I don’t expect you to understand but it’s still worth saying

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by Joe1999 » Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:01 am

We’ve arrange for the grandparents to pay the fees in advance. There’s a chance the VAT will be charged anyway but there is an IHT saving which is greater. Another reason this is a bad idea as the wealthier will save even more and it’s the middle classes that suffer.

Re: VAT a big fee mistake!

by Cougar » Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:54 am

Omg! I certainly wouldn’t want any of your your offspring in the top jobs with your attitude!

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