Careers advice for young girl Post Reply

[tooposhtopush]

Interesting link to a study at Harvard about gender bias

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

[SW11er]

I think some of you are missing the point a little bit.

Its not that the idea is flawed as it may not achieve the desired result.

Its flawed as its unhealthy and shows no self respect - as she puts her self into a position where she is relying on her partners wealth.

If a scenario develops where it works for all parties to have one parent stay at home that is different situation - but to target a role as a stay at home parent doesn't feel right.

Hopefully it is just a teenager making a comment for effect- but it is the parents job to bring children up to show more ambition and the right type of ambition.

[TFP]

In fairness I'm fairly sure that, at 15, I had some fairly absurd notions about what the rest of my life would be like, so I don't think that this girl's suggestion is too ridiculous at all.

But in summary, for the reasons already mentioned, it's a terrible idea.

The plan smacks of putting all of one's eggs into a highly risky and uncertain, potentially unsatisfactory, basket.

As already stated, with roughly gender equal graduate intakes in so many workplaces there really aren't that all that many opportunities these days for PAs to form relationships with 'professional' staff, and certainly not relationships where there's an acceptable balance of power between the two partners.

As already stated, a new female graduate should expect a good 50+ years left on this planet. 'get hitched to a rich man' isn't remotely close to being a plan that will provide a basis for filling those years in a way that's in any way rewarding.

As an aside, future earnings and the cost of living [well, buying property] is an interesting issue facing all parents in NV, it's starting to become very difficult to imagine how, without a big cash handout somewhere along the way, kids who go on to follow anything even vaguely approaching a halfway 'normal' career path will as adults be able to afford to enjoy anything even halfway like the living standards of their parents.

[firsttimerSW11]

You've touched a few nerves Seb. There is always an element of defensiveness when it comes to the truth. The fact is, there is a large number of stay at home mothers here in SW11 who couldn't wait to give up work once they had children. Many had high flying careers beforehand and generally met their equally high flying husbands at work as soon as they got married, it was no great hardship to leave the City behind.
I suppose it depends on what the 15 year old wants from life. When you see what is the very nice life of the stay at home mum certainly around here, you might feel perfectly justified in wanting that for yourself in the longer term. But really you can only have that lifestyle by either working in a well paid industry, thereby meeting a "nice rich man" or working in a well paid industry and being sufficiently successful yourself such that you can afford to be a SAHM when the time comes. It's a difficult one. I'd tell my daughters to do what they love and what fulfills them, irrespective of what they'll earn from it on the basis that they'll be much happier if they feel fulfilled. However, if they didn't have a huge amount of drive/ambition (why that might be is an altogether different thread), I wouldn't be completely against them becoming a pa in a law firm or investment bank Thereby raising the odds of the man they end up with will be wealthier than the average. I did, albeit unintentionally, and it is far from a bad life. As long as they ultimately marry for love, then what is the harm targeting a demographic with money than one without?
Incidentally there was an interview with Helena Morrissey in the evening standard this evening and when her son was asked what he wants to do with his life, his answer was "Stay at home, like Dad".

[Seb]

You've touched a few nerves Seb. There is always an element of defensiveness when it comes to the truth. The fact is, there is a large number of stay at home mothers here in SW11 who couldn't wait to give up work once they had children.

Yes - I didn't quite realise how much of a nerve I'd touched.

I hope I can make another comment here without it being labelled as stupid and offensive as I think there are some lessons being learned on both sides of the discussion.

Firstly, can I be really clear, my friends daughter is not saying she wants to become a PA to bag a rich person. It's really really important that everyone understands this point.

She believes that based on her expected GCSE grades that she will be unable to get into a "decent" university and that most high flying careers will be closed off to her. This is probably true. And if it is not true for her then it must, by definition be true, for the majority of people as there aren't enough high flying jobs for everyone otherwise they'd be just called "jobs"

So she is looking at non-graduate careers. Again she is very switched on and will probably go to uni but to a modern one where it won't get her into a high paying graduate scheme.

So we have a sensible mature fifteen year old whom based on her abilities and school feedback has a realistic understanding on where her career might go. She KNOWS that she won't be a lawyer (won't get into law school) and she KNOWS she won't be a doctor (same) but she also discussed how night school and other options might open up careers later in life that seemed closed now.

Based on all of this she is therefore looking for a PA job in a bank or law firm.

Is that so wrong?

Aren't we a little guilty of double standards because if you had read all of the above but didn't know that she was biased towards banks/law firms to potentially meet a husband then we might think "sensible person"?

[papinian]

Seb, I'm interested to know what you or this girl are thinking of as a "decent" university.

Is every university in the Russell Group a "decent" university? Even outside the Russell Group I would say that English universities such as Reading, Loughborough, Brunel (in west London) and City (in central London) are quite well regarded by employers, depending on the subject taken. And also many Scottish universities such as St Andrews and Aberdeen that aren't in the Russell Group.

As regards high flying careers, if you're good and willing to work hard, but not necessarily academic, you can move up once you start employment. It's not easy but I didn't start my career in the City and I know others who are in the same position. Also, if you do well at your undergraduate degree and follow it up with a masters at are more highly regarded university that can raise your position for graduate entry. And, in any case, more and more "professional" graduate entry schemes are moving away from prescriptive requirements such as a 2.1 from a Russell Group university.

Finally, one thing I notice about English people (I'm an immigrant) is that they have this belief that children have certain ability levels and are constrained by them. This isn't something that you find among immigrant communities where there is much greater realisation that pretty much any child can perform significantly better academically with a bit of discipline, focus and hard work and there is always room for improvement.

[clare74]

I'm going to reply to Seb's most recent post in this thread, not the initial one which several people have addressed well.

Actually, I still think that she's wrong! But I'm not sure that she's to blame - at 15, I certainly had no real idea of career options, beyond what my father and his friends did.

Nowadays there are just so many career options other than the traditional professions available - and if school/family isn't making her aware of these yet, then now is the time to start

Of course, if she genuinely wants to be a PA, then she should go for it. My sister did it and was brilliant at it. A friend has used that as a career path into project management and has a very good salary. (Note that she set out on her career wanting to marry and have children, but is now mid forties, still single, happy and solvent ) And it's no longer a case of taking dictation, typing and diary arrangements.

However I'm worried that she sounds like she's 'written herself off' because she's not academically brilliant. I personally think that there's too much emphasis on academic achievement indicating how successful you will be in your career. Drive, resilience, hard work, passion and commitment, great networking and interpersonal skills - school doesn't measure these and yet they can take you so far.

I suggest that she's made aware of all the other career choices there are - at a very top level, the following are each vast fields that offer a variety of rewarding careers: marketing, tech and development, teaching, events, design, health, HR - some of which pay very well too

Hopefully there'll be more structured careers advice in the sixth form but schools aren't always up to date with the latest career options out there. Meeting women who are in the workplace through family and friends, mentoring schemes, networking, school alumni etc should all be encouraged. (This is a good example with a great ethos - http://www.thegirlsnetwork.org.uk/) And things like TED Talks, articles on Medium are all great sources of inspiration.

I do wish her well in her future choices.

[supergirl]

@Seb: i would like to respond to your last post.

I am quite shocked - if what you say is true (and i am sure it is) - that my children are in an educational system where the dice are played so early on. That a 15 years old can already say that whichever career or universities is closed to her due to her predicted grades at GCSE, is unbelievable.
Call me naive, but she still has a few months before the exams doesnt that count? Do the A level or IB results count? And if what she say is true, could she not achieve the career she wants by taking the longer road?

Maybe i am naive and maybe i do not understand the system my children are in (they are at primary school), but to me it seems that this country is full of traditions and it seems there is not much movements or flexibility for the children who will achieve well but are late developpers. It is so sad.
In that system, i would have never been able to go on having an MBA and a postgrad because of my GCSE results.

And back to your original question. I am personally VERY happy that i live in a world where i can CHOOSE to stay at home, work part time or full time in the home or outside of the home, where i can start my own business or work for someone else.
More needs to be done of course, but i love that i can have a choice.
I wish childcare was cheaper to give woman more choices and freedom.

I am a person who always wished to be at home with my children and i could never contemplate that dream because in France women returns to work. Now because i have done well before, because my husband agrees one of us should be more around and because i live in country where it is still a bit OK, i can. But i DO feel judge and put down a lot paradoxically.

[hellokittyerw]

Seb, re. your last post - I still think she is wrong.
I am not sure what kind of university she would get into, but even from a less prestigious university - I would really question the suggestion that the best career path open to her is being a PA. There are many other career options - clare74 mentions some - the girl and her parents should really look into these.
I agree with papinian that some of the non Russell Group universities are well seen by employers. For example, graduate schemes at some investment banks require the 2.1 degree but non from a Russell university (although these are better thought of) plus you can help your application by having done internships and extra-curricular activities (university societies, competitive sport, etc etc).
So definitely she shouldn't write herself off so early on, a career is a long term path.

[graceygirl]

As a mid-twenties grad, I think it is really sad to think that girls younger than me are thinking this way. Disturbing - sorry. I don't really think the world works like that anymore. Lack of role models perhaps?

[graceygirl]

As a mid-twenties grad, I think it is really sad to think that girls younger than me are thinking this way. Disturbing - sorry. I don't really think the world works like that anymore. Lack of role models perhaps?

[TFP]

...Aren't we a little guilty of double standards because if you had read all of the above but didn't know that she was biased towards banks/law firms to potentially meet a husband then we might think "sensible person"?

it depends.

something like: 'I genuinely want to become a city PA because that career is attractive to me. A smallish added bonus of such a career is that I just might meet a husband there' is eminently defensible.

on the other hand, something like:

'I want to work somewhere where I'll meet a husband - I've heard that city PA might fit the bill' isn't really.

[millymoo]

Having (or getting) a man is not a plan. My advice would be to aim high and dream big. I have 2 daughters I tell them every night that they are amazing and can do anything in the world and that they definitely don't need to rely on anyone else to achieve their ambitions.

PS - I work full time in a male dominated industry (88% of the MDs at my firm are male and pale) and sadly this statistic will not change during my career lifetime but I am very vocal about the fact that it needs to change for the next generation for men and women.

[graceygirl]

Also lots of the big consultancies are moving away from just grads, many offering great apprenticeship schemes which I would recommend her looking into for non grads etc. ( Big 4 in particular)

[Confus_ed]

She believes that based on her expected GCSE grades that she will be unable to get into a "decent" university and that most high flying careers will be closed off to her. This is probably true. And if it is not true for her then it must, by definition be true, for the majority of people as there aren't enough high flying jobs for everyone otherwise they'd be just called "jobs"

Christ this is depressing. She hasn't even sat her GCSEs yet!

I think you are wrong on two fronts.

1. That graduate schemes are beyond those not at top-tier universities

I've interviewed people for training contracts and these days there is a lot of pressure to widen access to the professions so whilst anything below a 2:1 rules you out, as long as you clear that barrier then your CV is considered as a whole. When we interview we aren't told what university the candidate went to precisely for this reason. Of course that does get factored into the final decision but it's quite a fluid exercise - essentially you'd give pluses for Oxbridge, neutral for RG uni, minus for anything less BUT this can be counter-balanced by the rest of the CV. So an Oxbridge grad with no extra-curriculars would impress less than someone from a lesser University who'd run the student union, played a lot of sport, done charity work, loads of work experience etc... You really don't need to be a genius to be a good lawyer so anything that shows you have the other skills a lawyer needs is valuable (in the early years mainly just an ability to work bloody hard).

It's not easy (mainly because the Oxbridge grads know this and will have done lots of extra stuff too) but it is not an absolute bar.

2. Focusing only on 'high-flying careers'.

What counts as high-flying? What are we actually talking about? I suspect in this context you are using high-flying to mean well paid.

There's such a bubble around here that our children will tend to be surrounded by parents and friends' parents who work in the city. But these aren't the only 'high-flying' careers. They are the well paid ones which isn't the same thing.

There are so many fulfilling careers out there (both for graduates and non-graduates) but it doesn't sound like your friend's daughter has really considered what she wants to do. It's as if she's thought well if I can't be a banker/lawyer then next best thing is to work for one.

So even without the knowledge that her choice was also partly motivated by a completely misguided belief that this will also help her land a rich husband I would not think "sensible person".

No double standard - it is the same point. She is completely failing to think about what sort of job she might actually enjoy which should always be the key consideration.