Emmanuel School...

54 posts
schoolssoconfusing
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:19 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Emmanuel School...

Postby schoolssoconfusing » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:12 pm

I am really hoping that people can help me understand this school. On the one hand it looks great, has a strong emphasis on academics and also everything else that is so useful to be rounded and it says on the website that 70% of its pupils come from state schools - thats a bonus…

However last year Thomas's sent 8 children at 13+ and 9 children there at 11 which makes it one of their most popular school… so the question is, and I know its been dealt with on other threads, what is the point of the expense before to get them in and why are Thomas's parents choosing it…

I am really struggling to get my head around the advantage/ disadvantage of certain schools and this has confused me even more. Thanks for any positive feedback on this…
Post Reply
Quote
NorthcoteLuvvie
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:00 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby NorthcoteLuvvie » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:48 pm

Allow me... :-)

What you have to remember is that there are a LOT of selective and non-selective prep schools in this area.

At the fireworks on Friday night on Trinity Fields there were over 4000 people in attendance and they were organised by the "consortium" which is a group of private schools (Thomas's, Broomwood, Northcote Lodge, Finton, Hornsby) plus you have Eaton House and Parkgate and Olivier House and the White House and Newton Prep and Wandsworth Prep etc etc etc .

So there is a HUGE body of primary school age children in this area most of whom will either go away to boarding school or to a London day school.

If you take out those that board (I have no idea about the % and it will vary from school to school but I reckon 30% on average. Higher at traditional schools that have 13 as a leaving age, much lower elsewhere) then you have a massive "pipe" of kids hitting 11 years old who need to go somewhere.

On the whole they end up at JAGS, Dulwich, Alleyns, Emanuel, Whitgift, S&C, The Hall, Trinity, KCS etc etc etc and ALL of those schools have entrance exams and interviews.

The independent school kids are prepared and coached and trained so that they will get into one of these (or similar schools) and the prep schools will be also training the parents and managing their expectations. They'll be meetings with headteachers where it's suggested that "little johnny" doesn't consider KCS but does think about Emauel as his grades aren't up to it and the heads all have lunch together and brief each other on their pupils and who would "fit" best where.

It is a machine.

A great big machine where the cogs and wheels whirr and click to make sure that each child ends up in the "right" school for them.

That is what your paying for.

On results day, if there is a "shock" (ie a child doesn't get an offer from their preferred school) the phone lines between prep and secondary will burn up with calls as the prep school heads "sell" in their children and by and large, it all works.

Some are disappointed but most are happy and almost every kid ends up in the right school.

And most of these preps are non-selective ie anyone with money can get a place.

Now contrast the state child trying to get in at 11.

They have no support from their school (nor should they).

The bright ones (and I mean REALLY bright) will be snapped up by the independent secondary schools. They'll help move their grade point average in the right direction at GCSE and they'll nail the exams.

Of course they will, they're bright.

But the kids who are "normal" (and I mean normal - not below average) will struggle to get a place. They'll struggle because they don't have the machine helping them on their way and they probably won't get in.

Now because there are SO many of these state school children applying there are enough REALLY bright ones to get in so schools like Emanuel can claim 70% of our intake are state and make it sound like anyone at 11, no matter they're background, will get a place, but it's not the case.

So, phew, in summary

1) less able children who are privately educated will stand a good chance of getting in to a selective independent secondary because thats what they're trained for
2) bright state kids (really bright, please don't confuse just being top of the class, that's not enough) will be ok. They'll nail all the entrance exams
3) normal and less able state kids will struggle.

So Thomas will send lots of it's kids there because Emanuel will take a great deal of their intake anyway.

The bright state kids will go there because it's a great school.

Its the poor kids whose parents can't afford the fees of a prep but who are just normal who won't get in.

Does that help?

Does that help?
Post Reply
Quote
Mrs Contractor Mum
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:27 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby Mrs Contractor Mum » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:56 pm

Following this with interest. I very naively thought it was because parents of kids at Thomas' wanted their son's to go to their most local independent school.
Post Reply
Quote
supergirl
Posts: 1231
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 6:25 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby supergirl » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:25 pm

I am also following this with interest! Thanks northcoteluvvie very helpful!

May i ask why are you always talking about boys or sons???? Where are the girls, Emmanuel is co-ed as far as i know??? Thanks. Sx
Post Reply
Quote
schoolssoconfusing
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:19 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby schoolssoconfusing » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:29 pm

Thanks already for the comments. Its interesting as the school hasn't had much press…. It links into thinking about Thomas's results and whilst Thomas's has a lot of hype about it being academical, is it really and are its results as good as other private schools around Clapham Common? I am really struggling with this concept and again really welcome any constructive feedback...
Post Reply
Quote
NorthcoteLuvvie
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:00 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby NorthcoteLuvvie » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:37 pm

Emanuel is a great school and any child of any background will thrive.

I'm not saying I like this system, I think its cruel and unfair and hugely elitist, but I do think I understand it so if I can help I will.
Post Reply
Quote
Mrs Contractor Mum
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:27 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby Mrs Contractor Mum » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:53 pm

I hadn't realised Emmanuel was co-ed, when I was young it was a boys only intake.
Post Reply
Quote
broodje
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:31 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby broodje » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:21 pm

Are there people who actually know the school and have kids there and can comment on the quality of the teaching?

I am asking because I wanted to like it - it's local and co-ed - but I couldn't at the open day.

I think their results are very sub-optimal given they are after all a selective school. Certainly not as selective as Alleyn's or KGS, but selective enough to end up with normal, at least average, but probably above average intelligence kids overall and a sprinkling of high ability children who perhaps choose this school over more selective ones because they get a scholarship.

I have been doing a comparative table of results of local and not so local schools and Emanuel looks poor: 21% of A* overall, with 51% A*/A at GCSE, with 22% A* in maths (and it's not even IGSCE), 13%(!!!) A* in English and 19% A* in English lit. Similarly, 26% A* in biology, 33% in Chemistry and 26% in Physics - and that's after 33% of kids were in double science (ie.weaker students) rather than triple. French at appalling 19%. Ibstock Place is at least 2x the rate of this. Woldingham too, although probably even less selective.

Why? Is it the quality of the teaching (or lack thereof). From studying the matter, it seems that at GCSE it's not such a monumental task to get an A* with good teaching, selective intake and focused atmosphere. So why these low levels? Also taking into account large numbers of B's and C's at GCSE - Cs shouldn't happen in a good school with even mildly selective intake.

English doesn't surprise me - the head of department was SO bored at Open Day that I dread to think what it's like being in her class.

I would love to hear opinions of people with first-hand knowledge as I hate to write off something so local.

BTW, the school couldn't reply to my questions - they mostly got very defensive, especially Head of Maths when quizzed on number of Cs at GCSE.

I can see why people would pay >£5000/term for this if only option is Chestnut Grove/Burntwood Girls, but otherwise, how does one justify something that is worse than a good comprehensive (especially in top sets)?
Post Reply
Quote
jingo_x
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:34 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby jingo_x » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:02 am

When my kids were entering secondary school I was oblivious to the fact that kids were being coached to pass exams, and i had no idea how competitive it would be to get into the private schools (very naive i know). If your child sits an entrance exam at say Dulwich College or Alleyns there might be 1000 boys sitting the exam, for 100 places. The cut off line for offers is therefore drawn under the top 10% of the kids academically. It therefore makes sense that when these kids sit GCSEs their results should be outstanding or the school will have added no value at all.
At Emanuel they interview all applicants for year 7 entry, they are looking for kids who have potential and who will add to the school. They have a large number of music, art, drama and sport scholarships as well as academic scholarships. The 'added value' that the school then offers is to allow the kids to excel in their own strengths whilst achieving a good set of GCSE results (even if you are arty you still have to sit Science GCSEs).
So the kids at Emanuel get a rounded education. If they are A* students they will still get A*, the value is when your child is naturally a D in a subject and gets a B. League tables and comparisons with schools who are only looking for the top 10% exam marks doesn't let you see the full picture.
I have been very happy with the school and very pleased with my sons' progress.
Post Reply
Quote
Tinasan
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:41 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby Tinasan » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:56 am

Northcote Luvvie - I am interested in your take on state/private going on to secondary. I would agree that an average kid going to a prep school has a much better chance, and an easier route, to the 'next step school, but I don't know about only 'super bright' state kids securing places. In the (very good) state school my children attend, well over half go on to private education. Of the rest, I believe that many choose to continue with state education, and secure places in good state schools (The Oratory, Graveney etc).
Post Reply
Quote
broodje
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:31 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby broodje » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:42 am

Jingo, thanks for you post. However, it doesn't really show HOW Emanuel is good and how good the teaching is. How good the teachers are at addressing the difficulties, how passionate they are, how good their knowledge of the subject, etc. And what it is the school does that makes it a good school worth paying £15,000/year for. That's what I am struggling with. An average (i.e. not below, not above) shouldn't be getting a C or even B at GCSE in any subject in a private school with small classes, individual attention, etc.

And Emanuel IS selective - just not perhaps as selective as Alleny's and Dulwich. But Alleyn's doesn't just cream off top 100 as you say. Last year ~700 sat the exam, and 300+ were invited for interview (so basically 50%) and they read all the school report and look for extracurricular achievements. JAGS is more formulaic in its approach and that's why I didn't put in in the comparison.

And that's why I put Woldingham/Ibstock as benchmark - they are probably similarly selective, if not less so (at least Woldingham) but results are miles better.

So anyone else cares to comment on quality of teaching/overall guidance/academic stretching/enrichment, etc - all a good comprehensive does in top sets. So why not Emanuel, on surface?

I have not axe to grind - it's just I was thinking of it as Plan B that's "good enough" but after studying an ISI report, results by subject and going to an open day, I am not at all sure it's value for money and "good enough".
Post Reply
Quote
BTCparent
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 2:49 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby BTCparent » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:58 am

I am not sure this information is entirely accurate. Only four boys from Thomas's, Clapham sat 11+ last year (as the majority do 13+) and left in September 2013 (my son is in that year) and none of them went to Emanuel. So far as I am aware none of the girls who left at 11 and joined new schools in September 2013 went to EmanueI either. I suppose the children the OP refers to could all be from Thomas's Battersea but they tend not to come that far south. A lot of children will sit for Emanuel at 13+ and be offered a place but they will also have sat for other schools and may take places up at those schools so the Thomas's website may talk about people gaining places at schools but they may not have taken up the places.
Post Reply
Quote
BTCparent
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 2:49 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby BTCparent » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:03 pm

Sorry, just a further thought on the statistics - the Thomas's children at 11 could have come from Thomas's Fulham which does not go beyond Year 6 ....
Post Reply
Quote
schoolssoconfusing
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:19 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby schoolssoconfusing » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:40 pm

I don't think its relevant if they have come over from Fulham as its Claphams responsibility to get them into good schools at 13 if they are there for the last two years…

This is the link showing destinations and in 2012 8 went at 13+ and 9 at 11+

http://www.thomas-s.co.uk/Mainfolder/Cl ... lapham.pdf

So this links back to possible concerns that Thomas's isn't as good as it could be in getting people into top schools ...
Post Reply
Quote
Mistletoe
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:30 pm
Options:
Share this post on:

Re: Emmanuel School...

Postby Mistletoe » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:46 pm

What about comparing results with Streatham and Clapham. They are a more all round local school (like Emanuel) .

I think its a very interesting post, discussion and a polite one too :D

Private schools fees are expensive and I agree that you do want to know that you are getting value for money in all depts - academic and co corricular. Would appreciate reding any more insight that anyone has to offer.
Post Reply
Quote