Tank parade Post Reply

[wasateacher]

judi: the original post and the responses have all been political, none is party political. Many of the other discussions on this forum can be seen as political, depending on where you stand - are we really not allowed to have such discussions?

[Beketaten]

I think this is an interesting discussion, and I am glad it has been raised on this forum.

While I am glad that these troops have come home in one piece (physically at least, who knows what unseen damage has been caused), I am also unwilling to *celebrate* their campaign or glorify their role. I am very uncomfortable with labelling all service personnel as 'heroes'.

[clapset]

Papian go and see the parade. You will see a tank with forward gears not just reverse!

Be The Best, son!

[clapset]

Hey Pappers ... just seen the parade is on Ncote ... so no need for you to worry about it as most of your posts are about some place they call Tooting. I wouldn't let it worry you pal. Focus on your chicken shops, Sadiq Khan, your problems with low quality schools, concerns about teaching, and let the rest of us revel in how great it is to be British!

I wonder if they will let me drive the tank ... peace and love!

[CBW7779]

I think it is a huge mistake to assume that anyone who attends the parade, or who shows support for British service people, supported the "wars" in Iraq or Afghanistan. I certainly did not support what we did in Iraq and went to demonstrations to that effect. I am certainly no Blair or Bush apologist either.

People who don't happen to know any service people might be surprised to know that there is a lot of soul searching and very intense moral, spiritual and political discussion within the services. One guy I know came back from Iraq a few years ago for some incredibly needed rest and "normality" (less than 1 week's leave after 5 months away, with only a few hours sleep per night). I was really sad to learn that he expected hostility from any stranger, given what he had read in the papers and how conflicted he felt himself about what was happening. Bear in mind that no one has much idea what campaigns our troops will be involved in from one minute to the next - it might be humanitarian assistance on the ground in Syria/Lybia/Sierra Leone, or it might be driving fire engines in SW11, propping up broken down river banks in Gloucestershire or guarding our democratically elected politicians from terrorists.

It's really incredibly daft to point to criminal activity in a group of people and then condemn that group. Which social group in the world has no criminals within it? Priests? Mothers??!

If you genuinely don't think that any of the various jobs our service people do are worthwhile, don't go to the parade. But there are many people who would like to say thank you in whatever way we can for jobs that frankly we'd really rather someone else did, and some of those people will be at the parade (if they can get time off work/get there around their childcare commitments!).

Perhaps if you feel so strongly you SHOULD go to the parade with your own placard, and make your views known directly?

[nannypj]

Whether you support or don't support the our forces is your own choice.
I lived on camp with army/navy/airforce families and yes they get more money for going to Afghanistan, that said their families live a transient life, its very difficult to for the wives to find work when they move every few years and there are children. Childcare is an issue, not able to afford the luxury of nannies for your average military families. For whatever reason people go into their chosen career the wages don't very often reflect the job.
If you want to go out and show support to men n women who do a job in extremely dangerous circumstances that are caused mostly by the greed of governments then go do it.
I think we should all be thankful we have people that are there to do the job. Lets hope we never find out in this country what it would be like to live in a war zone, you'll all be thankful for the forces then.

[papinian]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... y-him.html

Damaged ex-soldier sexually abuses and murders four year old child.

The British army is a hugely flawed institution. Jinjoistic parades don't do anything to reform it.

[tamara]

Troops help in flood hit Somerset

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/enviro ... ffort.html

British warship sent to help typhoon hit areas

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/11/1 ... 1120131112

they do a lot of good

[Wheresmyschool?]

Have to say I don't normally wade in on the side of the establishment but calling an institution which stopped the spread of Nazi Germany, helped rescue France from occupation and has helped bring democracy to the Eastern Bloc hugely flawed is a bit much.

[livegreen]

@papinian Are you bored today ? Or just boring everyday ? Probably both...
What is the point of your silly post ?

Do you go through every case of abuse and murder, look at the ex career of the perpetrator and then condemn anyone associated with such a career?

Most of your posts are mainly to provoke a reaction in reasonable people, they do not to ask reasonable questions or encourage intelligent debate.

[Sw11_123]

Another minor whiplash suffered at the hands of Papinian as I shake my head at your written word.

You should come with a safety warning!

[Wheresmyschool?]

I have to say that even though I usually strongly disagree with Papinian I do enjoy his or her posts

[juliantenniscoach]

@pap Statistically one of the highest % of sex offenders are lorry drivers e.g. Peter Sutcliffe, Robert Black. Would you demonise them all in the same way? I think not. Never let your own hubris get in the way of a reasoned discussion.

[Wheresmyschool?]

@MM how do you know he's a him?

just curious?

is there a secret place where NVN people meet in the "real world"?

[papinian]

Have to say I don't normally wade in on the side of the establishment but calling an institution which stopped the spread of Nazi Germany, helped rescue France from occupation and has helped bring democracy to the Eastern Bloc hugely flawed is a bit much.

Wheresmyschool: I'm glad that you enjoy my posts.

(1) Today's British army is not the army of World War II. That was a conscription army - completely representative of the male population. The British army now is a rather small 80,000 and not particularly representative of the population. I don't think anyone would claim that today's NHS is the same as the NHS when it was set up in 1948, so I don't see why the same should be said of the army.

(2) I am at a bit of a loss as to how the British army helped bring democracy to the Eastern Bloc. Yes, the soldiers sat on the Rhine for many many years. However, my recollection is it was popular protests let/orchestrated by a lot of brave dissidents that brought democracy to the Eastern Bloc.

To be clear, I have nothing against individual soldiers in the British army. I know several current and former serving members. However, there is a culture in much of the British army that has allowed abuses by soldiers to be carried out with impunity. There is a very high rate of crime by, and imprisonment of, ex-soldiers. Several times higher than the general population of males in the relevant age group. People who go around describing the army as heroes etc. contribute to this.