Is it time to ban 4x4s? Post Reply

[CyclingLondon]

I'm sure we've all seen the awful news about the Land Rover crashing into the school and killing a poor girl and injuring many others.

I'd almost forgotten but something similar happened at Beatrix Potter a year or two ago.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62337283

The common thread is that both drivers were driving large heavy 4x4s.

Is it time to think about banning these cars around schools?

I'm not looking to start an internet spat, this is a genuine question.

As I continued to think about this I then thought to myself that it's not the car that's dangerous but it's the people driving them and then I thought isn't that the argument that the NRA use in the USA for gun crime?

Are our 4x4s the guns of the UK? We know they kill children and we don't need them but we want them?

Again, I really want to understand the feelings behind this so please don't go off on one either way - looking for a grown up discussion.

[Goldhawk]

No banning them is not the answer imho

A better idea would be proper traffic law enforcement

If local forces were allowed to keep the fines from traffic offences (eg using your mobile while driving) the fines would easily pay for the additional officers required

 

[Guest]

I’d be in favour. A vehicle like that has no place in London for carrying out journeys which could be done by a much smaller vehicle. Softer versions of an outright ban might be punitive taxation or restrictions to advertising, the hard version of the latter would be banning it together, soft versions woud be restricting what they could show (most obviously banning the use of cynically misleading forest and desert etc backdrops in the ads, more extreme versions something closer to what we’ve done with cigarette packaging, eg forcing the ad to prominently display an overfilled car parking space or possibly a dead child).

[Starr]

Since this awful tragedy in Wimbledon I can't help looking at these huge cars as dangerous objects. I'm not sure they can be banned but really people should think twice about buying these oversized vehicles.
I also feel uneasy about sports cars as they also look difficult to control.

[supergirl]

I just want to say a few things.

Firstly comparing 4x4 to the gun situation in the US is completely irrelevant, and frankly quite crass for all the victims and their families involved. But I sort of get what someone would make the comparison I suppose.

There are a lot of people who only owns 1 car because they cant afford to run 2; so that car has to be multifunctional: the school run, the food shop, the trailing, the country roads, the snow, the mountains etc. Not everyone choose those cars for status symbol but for practicalities, functionalities and versatility. A better question is how many of the owners of those car have ever switch the 4 wheels drive on?
Also when lifting a newborn out of a car it is easier from a tall 4x4 instead of bending down.

Banning those cars isnt the answer in my opinion. It was a very very tragic accident but it was an accident. The investigation isnt finished yet so we dont know if that driver has suffered a mini stroke or anything that could have made the accident happen or if it was indeed dangerous driving.

I think the only way to look at it is what about public transport? People use their car because the alternative is expensive, delayed, not frequent and therefore inconvenient or even dangerous if you are on bikes. Local authorities and public policies have to make it enticing for the vast majority of us to use an alternative mode of transport. A complete overhaul is absolutely necessary in light of this tragic accident. 

- more public transport: so hiring more drivers and pay them well;
- more often 24hrs/7 so again pay the drivers an incentive for them to want to work night/week end;
- more stops ie. buses almost like hailing a yellow cab in NYC;
- overhaul of the cycle lanes with marking on the grounds and their own dedicated lights, like in Amsterdam where it is so safe to cycle (I was so impress 3 weeks ago).
- every schools should have school buses like in the US
- and many other policies that would make choosing your own car inconvenient.

Let's keep the roads for lorries, taxis, blue badges and ambulances/fire engines/police, and of course public transports

[supergirl]

I just want to say a few things.

Firstly comparing 4x4 to the gun situation in the US is completely irrelevant, and frankly quite crass for all the victims and their families involved. But I sort of get what someone would make the comparison I suppose.

There are a lot of people who only owns 1 car because they cant afford to run 2; so that car has to be multifunctional: the school run, the food shop, the trailing, the country roads, the snow, the mountains etc. Not everyone choose those cars for status symbol but for practicalities, functionalities and versatility. A better question is how many of the owners of those car have ever switch the 4 wheels drive on?
Also when lifting a newborn out of a car it is easier from a tall 4x4 instead of bending down.

Banning those cars isnt the answer in my opinion. It was a very very tragic accident but it was an accident. The investigation isnt finished yet so we dont know if that driver has suffered a mini stroke or anything that could have made the accident happen or if it was indeed dangerous driving.

I think the only way to look at it is what about public transport? People use their car because the alternative is expensive, delayed, not frequent and therefore inconvenient or even dangerous if you are on bikes. Local authorities and public policies have to make it enticing for the vast majority of us to use an alternative mode of transport. A complete overhaul is absolutely necessary in light of this tragic accident. 

- more public transport: so hiring more drivers and pay them well;
- more often 24hrs/7 so again pay the drivers an incentive for them to want to work night/week end;
- more stops ie. buses almost like hailing a yellow cab in NYC;
- overhaul of the cycle lanes with marking on the grounds and their own dedicated lights, like in Amsterdam where it is so safe to cycle (I was so impress 3 weeks ago).
- every schools should have school buses like in the US
- and many other policies that would make choosing your own car inconvenient.

Let's keep the roads for lorries, taxis, blue badges and ambulances/fire engines/police, and of course public transports

[supergirl]

apologies for posting twice. no idea why it happened

[Tigger]

Completely agree with Supergirl.

The other thing is (and I know that it sounds horrid), but if the press is correct that the children were in the garden at the time, it wouldn't have made that much difference what the car was - a family people carrier could have done just as much harm as a landrover.  The accident at Beatrix Potter was in a Rav4 which whilst might be a 4x4, is one of the smallest of its type and certainly not that large and heavy.

Thoughts and prayers are very much with the affected families at what must be an unimaginably difficult time...

[KatherineHepburn]

Yes, I think it is time we overhauled the rules on SUV use in cities.

2 eight year old girls have died. Their families devastated. It's simply awful. Inexcusable.
It is a slow road around the front of the school, the sheer weight and power of that Land Rover took it through a metal fence, across a group of children and parents and into the side of the school building.

I think that this probably sums it up:
'SUVs are a paradox: while many people buy them to feel safer, they are statistically less safe than regular cars, both for those inside and those outside the vehicle. A person is 11% more likely to die in a crash inside an SUV than a regular saloon. Studies show they lull drivers into a false sense of security, encouraging them to take greater risks. Their height makes them twice as likely to roll in crashes and twice as likely to kill pedestrians by inflicting greater upper body and head injuries, as opposed to lower limb injuries people have a greater chance of surviving.  '

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019 ... our-cities

[TFP]

Yes, I think it is time we overhauled the rules on SUV use in cities.

2 eight year old girls have died. Their families devastated. It's simply awful. Inexcusable.
It is a slow road around the front of the school, the sheer weight and power of that Land Rover took it through a metal fence, across a group of children and parents and into the side of the school building.

I think that this probably sums it up:
'SUVs are a paradox: while many people buy them to feel safer, they are statistically less safe than regular cars, both for those inside and those outside the vehicle. A person is 11% more likely to die in a crash inside an SUV than a regular saloon. Studies show they lull drivers into a false sense of security, encouraging them to take greater risks. Their height makes them twice as likely to roll in crashes and twice as likely to kill pedestrians by inflicting greater upper body and head injuries, as opposed to lower limb injuries people have a greater chance of surviving.  '

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019 ... our-cities

I think that's right - we can't say for sure whether a smaller, lighter, car would have knocked down this fence or caused so many casualties, but the risks would have been lower, that's proven beyond any reasonable doubt.  

I don't think the guns comparison is totally unreasonable - the challenge I've heard a few times lately "so can you define what an 'SUV' is?" has obvious echoes of an NRA style "so can you define what an 'assault rifle' is?".

I'd certainly advocate a ban on sale of the biggest vehicles within London, a ban on advertising generally, and far stricter penalties for parked cars whose wheels have strayed outside of marked parking lines.

[Starr]

Would that Land Rover hav e caused as much destruction had it been regular car? Possibly not. I read the driver had a seizure of some sort so wasn't driving dangerously. But those SUVs are like tanks.
Also agree, being parked beside one in a car park leaves no room to get out. And our roads are far too narrow for vehicles of this size.

[supergirl]

I find that very telling that the majority is thinking an full ban is what is necessary. I am not saying it isnt probably a good idea but you are all completely dismissive of people who uses those car multi functionally because they cannot afford to (or dont want to) run 2 cars. Not everyone buys them for status. Some needs them for work ie. my kitchen guy for instance... and many more.

I find very telling that NO ONE is prepared to lobby the local authorities and government for better more efficient more regular public transport so we can choose a better safer more envirinmentally friendly mode of transport.
There you have it. I want a change, but I still want to be able to use my car....

Very telling indeed 

[juliantenniscoach]

I just want to say a few things.

Firstly comparing 4x4 to the gun situation in the US is completely irrelevant, and frankly quite crass for all the victims and their families involved. But I sort of get what someone would make the comparison I suppose.

There are a lot of people who only owns 1 car because they cant afford to run 2; so that car has to be multifunctional: the school run, the food shop, the trailing, the country roads, the snow, the mountains etc. Not everyone choose those cars for status symbol but for practicalities, functionalities and versatility. A better question is how many of the owners of those car have ever switch the 4 wheels drive on?
Also when lifting a newborn out of a car it is easier from a tall 4x4 instead of bending down.

Banning those cars isnt the answer in my opinion. It was a very very tragic accident but it was an accident. The investigation isnt finished yet so we dont know if that driver has suffered a mini stroke or anything that could have made the accident happen or if it was indeed dangerous driving.

I think the only way to look at it is what about public transport? People use their car because the alternative is expensive, delayed, not frequent and therefore inconvenient or even dangerous if you are on bikes. Local authorities and public policies have to make it enticing for the vast majority of us to use an alternative mode of transport. A complete overhaul is absolutely necessary in light of this tragic accident. 

- more public transport: so hiring more drivers and pay them well;
- more often 24hrs/7 so again pay the drivers an incentive for them to want to work night/week end;
- more stops ie. buses almost like hailing a yellow cab in NYC;
- overhaul of the cycle lanes with marking on the grounds and their own dedicated lights, like in Amsterdam where it is so safe to cycle (I was so impress 3 weeks ago).
- every schools should have school buses like in the US
- and many other policies that would make choosing your own car inconvenient.

Let's keep the roads for lorries, taxis, blue badges and ambulances/fire engines/police, and of course public transports

Excellent post.  

Referring to the accident, the Dept of Transport's own stats show once a vehicle is approaching 30mph the fatality rate rises dramatically, irrespective of the size of vehicle.  This along with emissions, is one of the main reason for the 20mph limit.  As previously pointed out, the investigation continues, so unfair to draw conclusions, including vilification of one type of car.

[SW18_Dad]

I see - so the proposal is to ban all large heavy vehicles?

So logically we are going to ban buses, lorries and delivery vehicles too?

Yes, that includes the supermarket home delivery vehicles. Gosh the silence - I can hear a pin drop and mums all over nappy valley swallowing hard.

Please try Googling

‘bus crashes through fence uk’

Busses can cause a lot more damage than SUV’s. That isn’t a reason to ban them.

Oh, wait no that doesn’t work either.

Short of having ram proof bollards/reinforced concrete walls nothing would stop even a small car. It was a wooden fence and flower bed.

More materially why didn’t the anti collision / collision avoidance systems on the car not stop it and apply the brakes? On most modern cars you have to try quite hard to get it to drive through something.

My daughter used to go to The Study.

[Kirstie’s Mom]

Firstly , I don’t own a car . When I did I owned a Range Rover because we had a horse kept in Surrey which we towed to events . It was also our only car so we needed to cart dogs and children .
Banning is not the answer and to equate them to gun problem in the US is over reactionary and rather naive.
Both incidents are rather different in layout so they are just cruel accidents . The similarities are that from what I understand is both drivers suffered from seizures . If they had been driving a smart car the deaths would have probably have occurred .
It was an extremely sad freak accident . You can’t legislate for these - they are sad and horrible but happen. If I thought like you ,I’d ban cycles that run over pedestrians . A little girl was killed in Devon last week by a cyclist who ran a red light and he didn’t have a seizure .