TOTALLY SHOCKED AT SUCH IGNORANT PEOPLE Post Reply

[Bluebutterfly]

I think this expectation that somebody else will clear up the mess happens a lot in public places - it is the only explanation I can think of for why public toilets are usually in such a disgusting state. People think "somebody is being paid to clean this, why should I worry about making a mess / clearing it up"?! Having said that, we all have distracted moments when our minds are elsewhere, we are struggling with a troublesome toddler and we don't get round to, e.g. picking up every single book that our child was looking at in the library before we leave.

Doctors surgeries are interesting places for watching parent / child interaction as there is often a long wait, not much for the child to do, an expectation for everyone to be quiet which the child instinctively wants to rebel against! I was in a doctors surgery a while ago - a mother was there with 2 children, both of whom had obviously (and understandably) had enough of waiting (half hour delays are quite normal). They were starting to mess around and their mother was trying to stop them, but her efforts were hopeless as whenever she asked one of them to stop doing something they completely ignored her and she made no attempt to enforce any sanctions - e.g. "please sit down", "stop shouting", "stop hitting that child" etc - ignored several times - no consequences. No attempt to march the child to a seat and force her to sit down, no strict words etc. I don't know if that was just this mother's parenting style (totally fair enough, each to their own, but must be exhausting being permanently ignored) or whether because of the situation she was reluctant to do anything which would cause a child to scream and shout and cause a scene. I'm pretty sure I will find myself in a similar situation at some point, so what is the best thing to do? Discipline your child and expect the other people waiting to put up with earsplitting screams, or let your children run riot quietly?! Any thoughts?!!

[Scottov]

You make a fair point bluebutterfly

But as I mention "sausage" was not tantruming, he was quiet & calm. her hands weren't full.

she just didn't care - I think that's far worse than someone drowning under a torrent of meltdowns in a surgery (say)

Big gestures & high toned moments tell us far less than the small moments where people aren't thinking its just instinct & habit taking over

[Bluebutterfly]

Yes, I agree, this does sound like a different situation to the one that I described, especially as they were just leaving - so no issue with avoiding tantrums disturbing others. Do you think it would have been good if someone had asked her to pick them up herself? I must admit I am not great at confrontation so tend to avoid saying things at the time, whereas my sister is always very brave and confronts people when they make a mess and don't clear it up / drop litter in the street / swear at their children in public (!). I think it might make things better for everyone if there were more people who are willing to highlight these things (but I for one am not brave enough!)

I was also just wondering, from different angle, how to deal with a situation where your child is misbehaving but you can't just get up and leave the building - as you could in many other situations. There are lots of experience parents on NVN - maybe one of them has found the perfect way round this problem?!

[AbbevilleMummy]

Bribery!

[izzye789]

give them a good slap that will work and if anyody pokes there nose in tell to mind there own buisness.instead of ho darling please pick that up and humbling to them most of them are all posh spoiled brats anyway seen to many of them they rule the parents.and the parents put up with it no pity

[supergirl]

@Scottov : that was indeed a shocking behaviour/attitude

@Blubutterfly: personally i would always choose to reinforce the boundaries whatever it takes. About 3 weeks ago waiting at my surgery for a bloodtest for me with 2x under 5's not doing as i said and starting screaming i went to the receptinist and asked her in the calmest way i could (i was boiling inside) to watch for my number if she didnt mind as i would be outside for the next few minutes... IMO, there are no reason why your child can ever think he can get away with anything due to the situation... (Sometimes i take one under my arm and run out to tell her off).

[ellesmum]

I agree with Supergirl - and the younger you start teaching them the boundaries, the better! We went through a really difficult period when DD was around 2, and she had quite a few sessions on the naughty step and smacked (nappy padded!) bottoms, but thankfully she's now grown into a very well behaved 4yo. She still has her moments, and generally they're when she's tired or coming down with something, but we won't stand for it & she knows that! I must admit, though, that if she decided to throw a paddy in the middle of a cafe, I would be absolutely furious with her and couldn't let her continue for 5 minutes in a confined space because I don't think it would be fair on those around us. I would give her to the count of three to stop, and if she didn't, I'd gather our things and walk out with her, even if it meant leaving the drinks. If someone commented on her behaviour, I would be mortified, so I would rather that they saw me doing something about it, and then I could apologise and explain how out of character it is when we walk back in after a quick "chat" with DD outside.
Bluebutterfly - don't wait until a situation arises where you have to take action, use opportunities to have a discussion about good and bad behaviour during calm times, too. For example, if we've been watching something on TV where a child has misbehaved, I ask DD what she thought about the situation and whether the child was right or wrong, how she would feel, and whether she thought they should have acted that way, and use that as a prompt for discussion. I encourage her to think for herself and build her own "moral compass", and it makes it easier to talk her down if she does throw a tantrum. If it happens somewhere that we can't just remove her from the situation entirely, we try to find a corner to take her to, crouch down to her level, hold her hands (or all of her if it's a proper foot-stamper), look her in the eye and encourage her to talk rather than have a tantrum, and remind her of previous, calm-time, discussions. We can count full-on tantrums on one hand, thankfully, and her behaviour usually makes us very proud & draws compliments, BUT if someone saw her having a paddy, they would only see a snapshot of her at that particular time and think she was a devil child! Which is the normally the "special" behaviour she reserves for her in-home boundary pushing...

[Lulubear]

With regards to the OP, I think if we take our children to a public place the onus is on us to try your best to keep our children's behaviour within reasonable boundaries or take them outside for a time out and ultimately leave if that doesn't work. As a parent of a former toddler I know how hard it can be sometimes and yes, there's always the dilemma of whether you try to discipline in public and risk a tantrum or allow low level misbehaviour and disobedience to continue because its less disruptive than a tantrum! Cafe Nero is not as child-focused as, say, Its a Kids Thing or Bertie and Boo's Adventure Island where its perfectly acceptable for kids to shout and scream.

I have always regarded taking my son out to restaurants or cafes as a bit of mission requiring a bit of planning (e.g remembering to bring some form of entertainment to cater for moments of boredom) and constant effort whilst I'm there to keep the behaviour acceptable. It has got easier as he has got older but it was certainly very hard work when he was a toddler. I can certainly remember a few difficult times in doctors practices when the waiting time was long or restaurants when the service was slow!

Five minutes is a long time to listen to someone else's child having a tantrum in my opinion so I do sympathise with those in the cafe who found it difficult to put up with. Not sure I would have said as much as them as I don't like confrontation much but I would have probably been annoyed! I do also sympathise with you OP. Its a difficult situation but I think I probably would have taken the children outside until the tantrum was over and asked the staff not to remove our food/drinks as we would be back.

And, Scottov, yes the behaviour of the mum in the doctor's surgery was totally inconsiderate!

[izzye789]

no it wasnt scottiv far to many upper class familys let there children rule them i know i.v worked with them for more than 20 years and listen to the way they speak to there children just last week i saw a 3 year old kept running from room to room bashing in to her pregnant mum of 9 months all she could say with a smily face is please dont do that darling you will hurt the baby so she just carried on doing it .they just seem to humble to there children and let them rule.odd way to disepline children i think. they all think its a game.

[sk1]

Scottov- Did you ever think that this mum might have been totally distracted by the fact that she received really bad news at the doctors?
Who knows what was on her mind, you saw one little snapshot of their day.
She might have just been trying to get out without breaking down.
God knows I cry most times I go to the doctors!

DancingQueen, even if your child had been really out of control, for other customers to make you feel bad is really awful.

[metoo]

My son often played up in the GP waiting room - it's not a place you can just walk out. I once asked the receptionist to look out for my name and she told me if I left the building and missed the call I forfeited my appointment!
He didn't scream or anything but was defiant, wandering off or being noisy with the toys or wanting to go through doors where he wasn't allowed.
He also ignored consequences - and yes, we did carry them out, he just didn't give 2 hoots. He played up a couple of times in a coffee shop - trying to put sugar in his milk, keep opening the door and we left. Always with a heavy heart as it was punishing me and his older brother. A child psychologist told us not to do this as he was getting his own way - he was bored in the coffee shop and he wanted to remove us all from somewhere he didn't want to be. I tell you, when it's your child you can't win. Just as the lady who tapped her son's hand to other's disgust I've had my parenting skills judged but in the opposite way: I was told I should give him a good slap. I don't hit my kids and I don't take parenting advice from people in the queue of WHSmiths!
I suppose my main rule was that I never wanted his behaviour to impinge on others and try and keep him safe (from himself!).

[Sherlika]

I would be very careful about judging parents and their children who are 'out of control.' In this case, however, the mother is the one who was appalling and she should have tidied up together with the child. It would be a great opportunity to teach him that is not ok to mess magazines and that he would have to put them back.

I wonder why nobody asked this mother to organise this mess? I would have. I can usually read the body language of people and see they kick themselves with frustration, but fail to complain and take action. This is a typical British behaviour where it is though that complaining is inadequate. It is not.

On the other hand, and this has nothing to do with 'sausage', going back to children who are 'out of control,' I would be very careful. There are some children with hidden disabilities who are difficult to be taught anything. I have a brother and a child with autism and I am an expert in this situation. So, judge less and think first if the parents are out of order.

[Scottov]

Scottov- Did you ever think that this mum might have been totally distracted by the fact that she received really bad news at the doctors?
Who knows what was on her mind, you saw one little snapshot of their day.
She might have just been trying to get out without breaking down.
God knows I cry most times I go to the doctors!

she might have just been abducted by aliens too.

you can make excuses for absolutely anyone, on anything if you are so inclined.

[izzye789]

well done back you all the way!!

[falconmum]

Well done mungomuffit. U r right. the onus is on US as parents.