Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

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shaneleone
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Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby shaneleone » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:47 pm

Apologies for the lengthy post, but we're at our wit's end and I feel like the more details, the more helpful the advice can be...

We have a 3 month old and a 2.5 year old (both boys). Our eldest was (I am realising now) a very good sleeper right from the beginning, but we haven't been nearly so lucky the second time round. The baby has only just turned 14 weeks, so I know he's still quite young, but we'd really been holding out until 12-14 weeks in the hope of some improvement, and instead he just seems to be getting worse!

He's been difficult right from the start not only to get to sleep, but to get him to stay asleep. So despite our best intentions, he's ended up in our bed - as I just cannot face the hours and hours it takes to get him back down at 1 a.m., 3 a.m., 4:30 a.m. etc... He will sleep if I lie down with him and nurse him, but if I leave him in the bed on his own (making it as safe as possible with a light blanket and pillows at the edges, etc), he wakes up only minutes after I leave. He's also fall asleep if my husband carries him around, but as soon as we try to put him in his moses basket or cot, he wakes up and cries and cries.

He seems to like movement, so he will take cat-naps in the buggy, but we have to keep putting his dummy in over and over again to get him off, and even this doesn't always work. And then he wakes up as soon as we get home, or to playgroup, a cafe, etc. We don't own a car, but the few times that he's been in one, he will fall asleep if I am there to put the dummy in at the start, and replace it as needed. Other than that, he'll fall asleep if I carry him in a sling and he uses a dummy against my chest - but my back is really giving me trouble from carrying him around like this as he's quite a big boy, and I'm not that big myself....

We've tried everything we can think of to get him to be able to fall asleep on his own - he's never liked being swaddled, white noise hasn't seemed to make any difference, we use black out blinds in his room and our own, it's quiet and an appropriate temperature, he has his dummy but only really takes it in the buggy or sling (and that's if I replace it quite a few times to get him off), he also has a little soft snuggly blanket/toy to hold that his older brother loved, we use a lullaby as a cue for sleep with our baby monitor... But none of these things work. I've tried to give him as much of a routine as I can manage with the toddler when I'm on my own - he has a bath most nights and then I nurse him in his room. But it takes literally hours and hours to get him to sleep so I have to put the toddler down first and then we're all overtired, and when my husband gets home from work, he takes over since I can't take it anymore.

We have tried letting him cry it out, and although it worked once or twice at the start a couple of weeks ago - more often than not, it didn't and now it won't work at all. He just gets angrier and angrier until he's sweaty and red in the face and swallowing so much wind, that when we finally go in (anywhere from 20-50 minutes later), then we have to calm him back down and start all over. If it sounded like he was starting to calm down and whimper, I'd leave him longer but he just gets more and more worked up and it's awful to listen to and he doesn't sleep anyway.

So now I feel like we're training him to cry and cry and then eventually we'll come in and he can fall asleep on one of us - which is exactly what we don't want to train him to do - but we cannot figure out how to get him to sleep otherwise.

Right now - he'll have short (hard-won) catnaps in a moving buggy, or while we're walking with him in a sling. Otherwise, I have to lie down with him or he falls asleep while my husband is holding him and walking around. Then sometimes, but not all the time, we can get him down into his moses basket without him waking up. But even then - he's often up again 15 minutes later, and we have to start the whole process again.

He does spit up quite a lot (esp compared to my older son, but it doesn't seem to distress him), and he needs to be winded after a feed - but other than that, it doesn't seem like there is anything medical going on, as he'll fall asleep if he's lying down with me or being carried by daddy.

Again, apologies for the lengthy post - but any and all advice, suggestions, etc would be very much appreciated. We are desperate to teach him how to fall asleep (and stay asleep) on his own!

Thank you.
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emsken
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby emsken » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:12 pm

Could he have reflux!? Might be worth seeing a GP...? If he cries a lot when lying flat, I would advise seeing GP and asking for ranitidine... Sounds awful. Once you are sure there ar eno medical reasons for this, you could also enlist the help of a sleep trainer. I can recommend one I used, so do message me if you need to!
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shaneleone
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby shaneleone » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:28 pm

I have wondered about reflux - but he is fine lying flat when he lies down with me. The vast majority of the time when he spits up, he seems perfectly fine. Though we are getting so desperate that I am going to be ringing my GP tomorrow just to rule out anything medical, which I hope they'll be able to do...

Thanks for the reply, and will definitely message about the sleep coach....
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jillmieke
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby jillmieke » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:43 pm

I am no expert..... But only other thought is whether he is getting enough milk during the day and / or has he found his thumb for self soothing.... Good luck!
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Nirthernbird16
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby Nirthernbird16 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:22 pm

You could try cranial osteopathy? We have a 6 week old and have been using them, there is one in Wandsworth called the OCC, the phone number is 02088755290. Www.occ.uk.com
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shaneleone
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby shaneleone » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:32 pm

He does seem to be getting plenty of milk - he was born at the 25th percentile, and then shot up to the 75th within a few weeks, where he's stayed since. He's quite the chubby baby, so that doesn't seem to be the problem.

He does suck his fists quite a bit and has found his thumb on occasion but not consistently yet. I keep hoping that he'll manage to keep hold of the dummy or find his thumb, but not much luck with either yet.

Thanks for the replies so far - and would love to hear any more ideas - all thoughts very much appreciated! I feel like the sleep deprivation is really taking it's toll on my enjoyment of his time as a baby and also on my patience with my toddler....
Last edited by shaneleone on Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dansk1234dance
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby dansk1234dance » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:37 pm

I guess this is not a long term solution, but I've seen a crib, which is electrical and has different moving option. Such as 'car', 'buggy' and some other options. I saw it in a shop in Swiss cottage. I'm guessing its expensive, but could be an option to tie you over...pm me if you want more info.
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pie81
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby pie81 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:51 pm

Sounds like he is very overtired. how much sleep does he get during the day? he needs about 4 hours at that age I think (not an expert!). and maybe more actually, to catch up on missed sleep over the past few weeks.

can you spend a few days pushing him round in his pram or driving him around LOADS so as to get him 4+ hours of sleep a day? and let him sleep however he sleeps best at night for those few days. once he's caught up on sleep you may find he isn't so hard to settle. (though even then I would think he's a bit young to completely self settle). good luck.
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nuttymummy
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby nuttymummy » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:58 pm

Ok, this won't totally solve the problem re teaching your baby to go to sleep on their own but may at least give you some peaceful hours in which to regain some strength/energy for getting through the rest. Friends who've had these say they are the one thing no baby can stay awake in (using the side to side function).... You may be able to find one cheap on eBay or Annabel's arcade.... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fisher-Price-Oc ... Baby+swing
I wish I could be of more use - my third took an incredibly long time to learn to settle ... Now 2 and still initially cries at the beginning of every sleep/nap (though thankfully it's usually not too long!). I think it's great your lo is looking for their thumb (controversial I know) but if he manages to find it it could be the breakthrough you need!! Good luck & hope you get some uninterrupted sleep soon!!
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Erykah
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby Erykah » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:10 pm

just wanted to hand hold really.
my first baby was very easy and my 2nd really difficult.

Its so hard - esp as you don't have the time to settle them as you would with your first and you are always feeling guilty about how all this is affecting your toddler.

my 2nd child continues to be a demanding one, but we love her to bits and are working each other out. bedtimes continued to be awful til about 15wks when suddenly she started bf to sleep and i suddenly felt like i could comfort her.

can't give you all the answers but can tell you that you are doing the best you can. my first had reflux but still slept well (either on side or tilted in amby hammock) my 2nd didn't have reflux but screamed alot! and when she was asleep it was fine for her to be flat on her back.
they are a mystery....she had white noise, blackout, swaddling, rocking in buggy, infacol/colief/gaviscon/some probiotic colic drop thing, refused top up bottles, tried sling as well, but she just had to grow out of it.

she does still fight sleep though - my son never did though so i do think its a temperament thing
Last edited by Erykah on Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bluebutterfly
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby Bluebutterfly » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:16 pm

Poor you, you must be exhausted. I really hope you can find a solution soon. You mention that your baby sleeps fine when you lie next to him, and I was wondering whether you would consider "co-sleeping" - when the baby sleeps in your bed. I have actually never tried this myself, so I can't exactly "recommend" it, but I have a brilliant book called "The baby book" by Sears and Sears - two American doctors who have 8 children! There is a very large section in this book about co-sleeping, which they say is wrongly disapproved of by the medical community. They also say that they never considered it until they had their 4th child, and that was the only thing that worked with her. I know this may seem like a terrible option for you, but you seem understandably desperate to sort out his sleeping, and this seems to be one of the only situations when he will actually sleep, so I just thought I would suggest it. Maybe if your husband can carry your baby around for a couple hours(?!) after he gets home from work, then you could lie down with the baby? (If you are happy you could do it in a safe way) If you think this is feasible you could try to get a copy of the book I mention from the library - it has loads of other sleep advice and I have found it very useful. Sorry if this doesn't help at all, good luck with it all. BB
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Batterseamummy
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby Batterseamummy » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:19 pm

You poor things. I have to say, I think the easiest (but definitely not cheapest) would be to get a sleep trainer/night nurse in. I've heard they generally work wonders and it would at least give you a break and some much needed sleep for a short while. It will also be a long term solution as they get them set up on a good sleep routine. Try the nanny agencies, they generally have them on their books. Good luck with whatever path you decide to take. It sounds like you're doing a great job even if you can't see the results at the moment.
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ckwmum
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby ckwmum » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:10 pm

Poor you, it's knackering. I know what it's like to wait and wait for the magic age, in your case 12 weeks, and then see that vanish in the horizon with no change.

I'm sure 4 months feels like a million sleep deprived weeks away, but it is from that age that you can try Pick Up, Put Down as recommended in the Baby Whisperer. It isn't a quick fix but it is a way to teach a reluctant self soother to sleep on their own. There's loads of forums about it out there - look up PU/PD for details on how to do it.

Not sure why it isn't recommended before the age of 4 months but apparently it isn't.

I know this isn't even remotely helpful to hear when you're battling with exhaustion but your baby really still is very, very, very young and my first didn't come close to sleeping well until he was 7 months. Not that I'm damning you to that, I'm just trying to offer some perspective. It feels endless now but things do always change and so try to keep hope that sleep will come.
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shaneleone
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby shaneleone » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:39 pm

Thanks again so much for all the replies - it's nice to hear that I'm not just going crazy or doing anything really "wrong". I really thought my second would be easier!

I DO absolutely think he is overtired (we all are!!!). So I've been trying to get him just to nap as much as possible (using buggy, swing, sling, and lying down with him in the afternoon when my toddler still *thankfully* naps). But even then, I can only get catnaps out of him at best . . . we just went on holiday with my inlaws for a week and even with four adults and two kids, we could hardly get him to nap!

So then in the evenings, we try starting him out in his moses basket in his cot but it takes so long to get him down at night, that when he wakes, I end up bringing him into bed with me because I just can't face going through it all again all night and neither of us sleeping. We don't own a car (and I'm not that desperate... yet) - so I am doing my very best to get him to sleep as much as possible to avoid the overtired state, but it doesn't seem to be helping.

And we do have that exact swing nuttymummy - it does calm him, but he hardly ever sleeps in it (my toddler bouncing off the walls probably doesn't help). He's taken the odd nap there, but that's it.

I can often see him fighting sleep - he's tired and his eyes are drooping yet it's a total battle to get him to drift off. But even the hand-holding is very much appreciated Erykah!

We basically do end up co-sleeping at night, something I never thought we'd do. But it's the only way to get him to sleep - the problem is that he needs a lot more sleep than I do, esp since I'm chasing a toddler around as well. So I just cannot sleep with him as much as he needs to sleep.

We are considering trying a sleep trainer (we are that desperate), though the cost is a bit staggering. And I'm breastfeeding, so not entirely sure how that will work, and how much of a break it will give me.

I do know how young he is, but I just wish his sleep (or lack of) seemed to be moving in the right direction instead of getting worse. And I feel like it's hard on the whole family, including him. I could be wrong, but it seems like I should be able to "crack" him and figure out what makes him sleep (or 'tick')....
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kcai
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Re: Baby sleep advice?!?! 3 month old can't self-soothe...

Postby kcai » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:22 pm

You have my every sympathy - sleep deprivation is so difficult to deal with.

I'd be tempted to make sure he doesn't have reflux - you say he's nursing when lying down with you? If I recall correctly, lots of nursing/constant sucking can help soothe reflux, so if he's going to sleep on the boob and then waking up without it due to reflux pains, that might be one of your issues. My son had pretty severe reflux for the first 18 months of his life (referred to a pediatrician, etc) and this was something he did.

If you're using a baby bjorn sling I'd suggest you look into a more ergonomic one. http://www.bigmamaslings.co.uk/zen-cart/index.php might be a good starting point - the husband and I got a Yamo sling that was fairly simple (buckle instead of tie, straightforward straps) and it's better for the baby (bjorns tend to suspend from the crotch which isn't good for baby's development).

My second was non-reflux but a hellish sleeper - things got a little better when we were able to put her to sleep on her front. I think technically you're not supposed to do that until 6 months+ but we started at about 4 months out of sheer desperation. Oh - and we co-slept with her until about 7 months.

Don't know if any of this will help - just remember that this too will pass, eventually!
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