Full architect service vs design only vs design and build co Post Reply

[BtheC]

We're in the process of planning a kitchen extension (side-return and back extension) and a loft conversion and are trying to decide whether architects are worth their weight in gold in terms of not only designing the property, but also project managing the build process, or whether using a company that has integrated design and build can work well and save a small fortune?!? Or getting some plans drwan up and just finding a good builder. We're looking for something more exciting than just a few velux windows down a side return but certainly not something that aspires to be in the Architects Journal. Any thoughts/opinions/experience/recommendations would be very much appreciated! Thanks

[mummy2-3]

I am also interested to hear from anyone on this subject- I have seen a couple of architects who want to charge ~ 6k for the initial design ( which is v simple NOT Grand Designs) and then another ~ 6k to go into more detail for the builders and a schedule of work for the tender, all we are looking to do is a basic kitchen extension, these fees seem steep or am I just out of touch with the going rate?

[WannaBe]

Hi, I am a local mum and an architect. Certainly not offering my services, so no self interest here.

Architects are definitely worth the money. I am not sure about 2x6k quote as I do not know overall budget, etc. but normally I would say that architects charge 10 - 15% of the construction cost for such projects.

I would be surprised if you find a design and build company that would overall cost you much less, but you can of course shop around and make sure you like their style. Small house extensions are fiddly work, and architects will produce details making sure it all fits together perfectly. It is risky working without detailed drawings in advance. It could turn out great with an experienced builder, or be a botched job.

Furthermore, architects will make sure everything is done 'by the book' - building control, planning permission, etc. This will influence resale value of your house.

Good luck. I know doing up your house is stressful - we are just getting ready for our own remodel, and all I can say is that I'll employ an architect friend. I cannot face it myself with a full time job.

p.s. Make sure they are registered.

p.p.s. You can visit RIBA website for more information.

[Oceanhomedesigns]

Hi BtheC. We at Ocean Home Designs are a kitchen and bathroom company based in Earlsfield and we supply a full design, supply and installation service for all your kitchen extension needs. We offer full 3D kitchen designs in our free no obligation consultations, along with supplying a wide range of kitchen units, worktops and appliances. As well as using our own building team to ensure your kitchen is installed to the highest quality. If you would like a no hassle, all in one service for a great affordable price then don't hesitate to give us a ring on 0208 543 5100 or if you would like some more information about us why not check out our website at www.oceanhomedesigns.co.uk and see what you think.
Take Care

[MMmmm]

Hi there,

We were in exactly the same position 6 months ago when we set out on our ground floor remodelling. We also started out thinking about doing the loft at the same time but decided that as its a very self contained project we would start with the ground floor, learn from our mistakes and then attempt the loft in a few years.

Having spoken to a number of design and build guys recommended on NVN we ended up going down the architect route thinking that the extra cost would be worth it as we'd end up with something special and potentially different (well as different as you get with a standard clapham terrace ).

We also hired an independent project manager who we had to let go before the build began but that's another story...

Our architect was by no means cheap and while I wouldn't say that our architect did a bad job I really haven't been particularly impressed. He didn't bring anything new or interesting to the table, all his ideas bar one we had been discussing with the design build guys or came directly from us via magazine cut outs etc. His one big idea was really rather impractical. He did have the grace to admit that this was the case when i pointed it out to him, but as the client i was hoping he would see issues and design solutions not the other way round.

If we were to do this again we would go down the build design route and i would not hire an independent project manager.

I should caveat all of the above by saying that we haven't started to build yet having been let down but we are now just about to start so ask me again in 6 months time

Best of luck with your project.

[supergirl]

there are a lot of good reasons (cost being one and communication) for taking a company that can go everything under the same umbrella, but there are good reasons why not to...

1. unless they have an in-house RIBA architect they are not architects --> architects are insured and experienced (or they should be anyway) in order to touch the structure of a house (as opposed to interior designer);
2. they can and should guide through the minefield of building control, planning applications, etc... especially they know about structure so they can properly calculate what sort of beams you need, is you need beam coming up the walls as well, etc...
3. a very skilled architect could also help you create a proper open space to create sleek look and that can only be achieved by organising the beams in a sort of spider web kind of way (at a cost of course) --> what i m trying to say is a killed architect can pretty help you achieve any look you want
4. a very skilled architect can advise you on builders (they usually have some they are used to work with) as it is so easy to get a cow boy in who will not come at best or massacre the job at worth.

BUT and this is a big but
1. there are a lot of expensive rubbish architects out there and it is hard to find the good ones
2. architects can often disregard budgets and you be left with a schedule of work that would be quoted for way over your budget --> so you ought to be careful.

The bottom of the story is regardless of whom or what type of companies you hired, if you are hands in yourself if will be stressfull and likely to fail.
The reality is you as the client have to be on top of it even if you were to hire Norman and Foster --> check what they are doing, remind them about budget, when you are discussing ideas don't forget to ask them to give you a ball-park of the new idea, ask how will it increase, etc.

The risk with a company that does everything is that as soon as the big jobs would be finished, they are usually quite flaky when it comes to final touches...

I am an architectural interior designer (and I am not advertising myself), and having worked on so many huge projects throughout my career i'll tell you what i will do when i'll start my house in 18 months:
- I'll get an architect
- I'll get a very skilled builder
I won't make a saving on my builder and my architect as ultimately good ones are worth the money and they are busy all the time (this is why I have to wait 18 months)
- I will project manage myself
- I will make a saving on specs and instead of buying marble from italy, i'll go down the route of stained plaster... that sort of things, and I can def live with that!

Good luck but in the long run it is not worth trying to save a few hundreds quid on builders as you could be left with a terrible builder.

[elizad]

Hello

Just picking up on this thread... can anyone recommend an architect to assist with the design, planning and drawings. I am not interested in them managing the project though...

Also roughly how much have people paid? I have been quoted £2K for a 4 bed refurb ...

Thanks so much.

[Rabbit_and_Co]

Hi ElizaD,

I can't answer your question directly, but my husband is an architect and has done a lot of work for NappyValleyers - I'm sure he'd be happy to give you a rough idea of costs for the plans and drawings if you drop him an email - christophe@thomasandspiers.com

Hope this is helpful

Sophie

[audrey]

For our current house renovation project, we dealt with David Burgess at Burgess Mean Architects. He helped us with securing planning permission and drawings for building regulations. We already had a good builder lined up (who helped us on two other projects), so there was no need for contract specification work, as we knew pretty much what we wanted, quite in detail. And we also decided not to use the project management services as I'm currently at home and I can dedicate my attention full-time ("how hard can it be?", "better deal directly with the builder" mentality). But each project has its challenges and so far it has proved to be a very stressful job, always being asked to make quick decisions, no time for changing your mind, as it will prove costly, etc. In hindsight, I wish we would have gone the full scope and not try to save on the additional fees (so much easier just to focus on the nice things - kitchen design, bathroom fittings, rather than on the mundane decisions on lights position, radiators, drain pipes, etc.)

[supergirl]

I laugh at "mundane decisions"

These decisions you call mundane are the backbone of your house/built. The rest are important but mundane. You should dedicate 200% of your time and energy to what you call mundane: the only way to not make any mistskes, rapid decisions that will be costly in the long run. Kitchen and bathroom spaces designs are also absolutely key. Choosing the doors, colours, style is necessary but not as important.

I so wish people who renovate/build their own house would get their priorities right. That would save them so much money, pain and stress.

[audrey]

@ supergirl - Mundane in the sense of nothing to get excited about, yet very important to get right!

Believe me, we do get our priorities right, hence why such a stressful job this has been (otherwise, I couldn't have cared less and leave it all to the builder's decision); not everybody is a property developer who finds these things would come to them easily, for me it's been a lot of learning on the job, to be honest. Not something that I would endeavour to do again, once our project is finished!

[supergirl]

So why did you decide to project manage yourself!?!? Madness. To save a few £££ but to be stressed to the max not knowing whether you ve made the right decision...

I m not a hairdresser so i pay a hairdresser to do s job on me and my children i cannot do properly (i ve tried).

I m not a property developper and i m not advertising my services btw.

It s just a shame the way you feel because renovating/building a house should be very exciting and you sound worn out and you "eouldnot do it again". Sad.

[audrey]

No need to get so offensive, really....

It's one thing when you renovate properties for rental purposes, you don't necessarily feel that involved and I'm actually OK to take the builder's advice on most of the things. But when it is your own house, obviously I want to be involved first-hand and make sure I have a say when it comes to the best layout/specifications, etc. On the other hand, that doesn't mean I don't know my limitations and I will always defer any construction-related matters (the "mundane" things) to the specialists (who do this for a living). I do not project manage this thing all by myself, there is a project foreman on the site, who coordinates all the trades involved, he is the real project manager, I'm more like his assistant

As I said, it's been a learning process for me, and if I can save some money in the process, why not? We're not talking here of a few ££££, it was pretty much half of the architect's quote.

[supergirl]

Sorry if you frlt i was offensive, didnt mean to.

Again, i really hope that 5-6-10yrs down the line you ll feel the same.

You always hsve to balance what you are saving now (a few £££ ie. half the architect fees) with what it may (or may nit) cost you in the future. Knowing that to repair a faulty pipe you ll have to lift the floor boards...

But of course there are plenty of architects, builders and all in ine Cies who charge a fortune and dont deliver so people like are scared snd want to save obviously.

I m a professional in the high end. Again not advertising anything but i m so passionate about my job that i really feel sad tgst 1. You didnt enjoy "i will not do it again" and 2. You probably had to compromise on some bits because you didnt have a project manager "we had a project foreman" (which i would expect in any site by the way).

Enjoy your new house. Really.

[audrey]

To be honest, I don't know anyone who has been through a build project and came on the other side saying - oh, I really enjoyed that, I'd do it again. Really?!

Unless you're a professional and you've done this many times, but even then - each project has its own challenges and ups and downs. You start the project with the best intentions and it needs to be modified half way through based on one can/cannot do.

Anyway, I feel we diverted enough from the OP's original post, I merely ventured a recommendation for an architect and my own experience, it's up to her to decide what she wants to do. Good luck to the OP with her project!