Clinic for Newborn Son Circumcision Needed Post Reply

[papinian]

Why mutilate your baby's genitals?

Would nappyvalleynet allow a posting like yours that had replaced the word "son" by the word "daughter"?

Time for a little less multiculturalism in this country and some enforcement of the law against those who carry on such barbaric practices.

[papinian]

Papian, extreme as ever

My thought process was the same as yours actually, but she didn't ask for your opinion on the subject, just advice.

I'm not extreme. My view on male circumcision is pretty much the norm in this country. People are willing to make an exception for Jews or Muslims who circumcise for religious reasons but that's about it, and those reasons don't apply to the original poster. If you read what the NHS and BMA say, there is good reason to believe that male circumcision for non-religious reasons is unlawful in the U.K. where the courts have only ever held "ritual circumcision" to be lawful.

It's the original poster who is extreme. She comes here from the U.S. with all her cultural baggage. Most Europeans would have enough cop on not to ask on a public bulletin board a question about where to cut the foreskin off their newborn son. Just like most Europeans would have the cop on not to ask where they can have their cat declawed. That's another thing that Americans do that isn't acceptable here.

[millymoo]

You have got to love these cultural differences...

My sister lives in the US and her second son was born by emergency c-section at 31 weeks (he is absolutely fine now). After the first 24 hours (which were extremely critical) and he moved onto about a 50/50 chance of survival and the doc took my sister to one side and ask if she wanted them to perform a circumcision to which her response was "Errr no! if you could just keep him alive that would be great". Quite a calm response given the circs!

[KatherineHepburn]

Ok, I admit it. I don't get it.
Why circumcise baby boys....or anyone for that matter?
Surely it can't be for cleanliness as you just teach your son how to clean properly. And of what religious benefit would removing that part of a boys genitals be? I am not religious and have therefore not read or studied any religious texts....can someone fill me in here?
What is the point? It has got to hurt...

[Jen66]

It definitely hurts them. It's mutilation.

Horrible thing to do to a baby. Also, don't circumcised men have less fulfilling sex lives due to loss of sensitivity?

[Beketaten]

Well, this is the passage explaining the Jewish/Muslim requirement for male circumcision straight from the horse's mouth, if you really want to know:

Genesis 17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

It is pretty unambiguous! By the way, I am atheist, but we covered it in school!

[rachelko24]

Just to follow up since this seems to be such a heated/and emotive topic and of course, to defend myself a bit against this pretty harsh criticism that has gone up here.

Yes, in the US, this is pretty much the norm across the country. The reasoning behind why people circumcise their sons is easily googled. We personally are not religious, at the end of the day our decision was our own, but it had a great deal to do with the health benefits and ultimately clanship of my son matching his father and majority of his community (at the time).

I can only attest to our experience where our hospital physician used a local anesthetic, and my son actually slept through the procedure.

Also, here's a quick summary on the pretty extreme distinction between female and male circumcision. Comparing the two is pretty off-base.
http://bit.ly/wYYV0W

The only thing I would like to add here is that it is unfortunate that some have lashed out so harshly on this thread...which in the end scared off a good many other mums on here (mostly British!) who have messaged me privately with clinic recommendations instead of sharing their experience and referrals on this site. At the end of the day, this will apparently be a topic that won't be discussed, and no mother will feel comfortable asking for first-hand help or recommendations about the matter. I'm guessing many are happy about that, but seeing as the procedure is currently 'not' unlawful and will be carried out, I had believed this would be a safe forum to share and discuss. Perhaps one day.

[anootka]

As a Mother an American and a Jew I am appalled by some of your negative comments
I find it difficult to keep reading such insensitive and bigoted responses, especially when we are talking about personal decisions and small babies.
I had both of my babies circumcised, for firstly health reasons and second for religious. I am so pleased I did, especially hearing stories from friends whose boys have had various issues and one has to get his urethra reconstructed due to on going issues that could have easily been sorted with a circumcision
I realize that it does hurt whether done at birth or just a few days later whatever your belief is, however just minutes they are calm and never remember any pain. I love my babies no less then any English or a mother of any other religion mother and I respect their decisions whether I agree or not.
And if you have a problem with my personal decision Papian then stop ranting on a local mum site, and say it to my face. Its a lot easier to be a bully when you are being anonymous!

[papinian]

Cool it annootka. The only person who is ranting on this thread is you. You are in the U.K. now and you need to accept that you view on circumcision is a minority one and be respectful of that. I don't need to change my views to accord with your sensibilities. Is anyone who expresses a view different from yours "bullying you"?

It is very sad that you try to mislead posters into thinking that circumcision is desirable for health reasons when the NHS and the British Medical Association clearly say that this is not the case. I think rachelko24 was spot on in giving the reason for circumcising her son - so that he matches his father. That's why people do it - exactly the same as for female circumcision.

Everything you say could be said about female circumcision also or do you believe that those parents who have their daughters circumcised don't love them?

[Jen66]

I wonder if the people who circumcise babies are the same people who would be appalled at the idea of a newborn with pierced ears?
That's cultural too - just like foot binding was in China.

[CBW7779]

I just wanted to say that I wanted to read this thread to learn something, as I'm sure lots of other mums will, and thanks to some of the posters I have learned more about this subject so thank you to those who posted facts, reasons and backgrounds.

I think there is very little chance that any of the mums who are pro male circumcision are also pro, or even ambivalent about, female circumcision (FGM). Do jump in though if I'm wrong??!!!!

I think it would be a real shame if people stop posting openly and publicly on NVN when they have mothering queries, even when they are about issues which are unusual in UK culture. I'm not sure that anything anyone said (so far) is actually anti-Semitic, but im not Jewish so I guess it's not for me to say. I have dated American guys, British guys, Jewish guys and Gentiles (nope, I dont get around THAT much, it just happened that way!!) and the
circumcision issue didnt necessarily follow any particular lines in my narrow
experience, but as is obvious on this thread, male circumcision is quite rare
here I think.
But for those people who feel v strongly that FGM is wrong,
which I'd hope is everyone out there in Nappy VAlley, im not sure it helps to compare the two issues. Better to donate some money to an anti-FGM charity?

[AbbevilleMummy]

Ok, so I don't really get why you would want to circumcise your baby, but then I'm not American and its quite an unusual thing to do here.

I do kind of get why you'd want your son to be like his dad, however, if I were you I would consider where he will be growing up, especially during his teenage years as I'm sure he will rather be like his friends than his dad. Teenage boys can be relentless **** takers and so if I were you, if you will probably be in the uk then I'd leave him 'intact' as it were, if its more probable that you will be in the states then chop it off!

[Lucy Gardening Lady]

I think its time now we all just respected and understood that everybody is different and there is no right or wrong way to do things in life.

So long as people love their babies surely that's the most important thing.

Otherwise looks like this post/debate could go on and on and on !!!

[AbbevilleMummy]

Sorry, my post was not very helpful with regards to where to go! Forgot that bit. A Muslim friend of mine gave birth privately at The Portland and they did the circumcision there and then I think. You could give them a call. As they're a specialist women and children hospital with mostly international patients I'm sure they'd do it or at least know where you can go.

[Amme_2005]

Wow, I am sitting here in shock yet again at how vile some people are in slamming other peoples views and beliefs.

Whether you agree with a poster about a topic or not, I firmly believe that there are nicer ways to get across your view that just being mean and insulting.

Fine, if you don’t agree with circumcision, then so be it - state that and your reasons why if you feel the need - but can’t you be respectful at the same time.

One day you might be in need to advice or have a belief that others dont share and find yourself on the receiving end of some insulting and mean commentary.

Shame on you - you know who you are (or maybe you don’t, and that’s the problem!)