School Admissions Consultation - Belleville Post Reply

[cynic]

Custardy,

I too do not understand why Wix English stream is not more popular, but it is an observable fact from admission data that while it's improving this is still the case.
Shaftesbury Park has empty places (so is at a similar level to HighView).

I do know anecdotally that many parents on the Northside send their children to private schools (with avg house prices at least 100k less than BTC there's a calculation to be made I guess)

If you look at the council data we probably haven't even seen the effect of the birth rate itself - this will become apparent in a few years time
If you look at council wards then the birth rate is highest in Northcote Ward while Shaftesbury has one of the lowest.
The council like to state this as an empirical fact when actually it is a clear result of the quality of schools available in these wards!

Flogri makes the great point that yes the birth rate has increased but by far the biggest driver of demand for Belleville is it's own excellence which means people continue to move to be near the school.

Longer-term the birth rate explosion means that the fight is not actually over Belleville or any particular school but will turn out to be over the lack of suitable sites for school-use.
(As I have stated before the Council have sold off 6 primary sites in the recent past. I intend this a statement of fact rather than any kind of political point - we have all benefitted from the lowest Council tax rates in the country)

The massive oversubscription for Belleville needs to addressed and many posters have mentioned the other obvious factors (e.g. siblings from far away, paper-renting etc) which could be addressed. Those are for Belleville parents to consider I feel.

Let's not forget the council's original idea was for on-site expansion. The head was in agreement but this plan was (unexpectedly for the council) thrown-out by Belleville parents in 2009
The council had already asked Belleville to take 30 temporary pupils by this stage so had painted itself into a bit of a corner.

They then come up with this crazy idea of land-grabbing a school site in a different neighbourhood.
Here's a point of view: it does not matter what actual demand is there, excluding local children from attending a school site not only goes against any principle of fairness but is also different than any other school in the Borough (if not the country)
(I make no apology for using the term "land grab" - one only needs to look at the lack of transparency in the Feb2010 consultation on the Forthbridge expansion where the admission conditions were very obviously not made clear at all)
What is gonna happen with future expansions of other schools in the Borough, what precedent has been set by this?

These new proposals will not address this inherent unfairness in any way and seem more like going through the motions on a promise made to nearly 500 objections to the Forthbridge expansion back in June

(Sorry rant over)

[rcourtney]

Cynic,

Dont be sorry !!

Good post and dont forget that all points of view / opinions are welcome

[cynic]

I think it's really worth elaborating the situation at Henry Cavendish Primary School in Lambeth (less than 2miles from Belleville)

This Sep it was expanded to a four form entry school (120 entry) (from 60 in 2009). The two additional forms of entry were created at a different site Dingly Lane, SW16 1AU which is well over a kilometre straight-line distance from the original site Hydethorpe Road SW12 0JA
(Lambeth use straight line distance in there calcs)
It's also important to note that the typical recent maximum admission distance for the school is well under the distance between the two sites e.g. 2009 it was 325m

So how did Lambeth choose to work out admission distance?
After siblings etc they admit children by distance from EITHER site, the distance used is the distance to the nearest site.

This clear, fair, transparent policy at a school 2miles away from Belleville
enjoyed strong support by a majority of parents.

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/News/PressRel ... Intake.htm

[dandelion53]

I think everyone is making some really good points, but I'm afraid I think we're all thinking too logically and reasonably about it, whereas the council has made a botch of the expansion of Belleville and this is the (unreasonable) end result.

Yes, all the reasons it is unfair to residents near the forthbridge road site are true but they are irrelevant to the council as they are trying to provide places south of Battersea Rise. There was no need to open a new school for the residents north of Battersea Rise, they are already served by Wix. They should never have proposed the Vines site in the first place! The suggestion of using the Bolingbroke Hospital site instead makes the most sense to me but is probably too expensive as they'd have to acquire the site from the NHS and convert it.

The case of the Henry Cavendish expansion is interesting but not very relevant as Lambeth were creating a new school (HC 2) in an area with no primary school for 750m so the need was directly around the new site. This is not the case at Forthbridge Road. It stinks if local residents can't attend the new school but if they do, then Wix will continue to be undersuscribed and there will still be a shortage of places south of Battersea Rise. A complete balls up!

And yes I agree that the consultation exercise seems to be just to placate people rather than to actually change anything that they're proposing!

[twinmum]

I have found the exchange of views here really interesting - and much easier to understand than the council's letter, which I have read 3 times now

Oh and (what Monaco said)

I can't go to the consultation but please can those going report back on this thread afterwards?

Thanks again! TM

[cynic]

dandelion53

What if something regarding a local admission to Forthbridge site were phased-in over a period of time?
This could protect the fragile but improving demand for Wix (I am not sure if undersubscribed is technically the correct description)
(I am not actually convinced local admission to Forthbridge would actually damage demand for Wix because you are bound to see some migration to the area to try and gain entrance)

This could also allow Belleville demand some breathing space to get over the shock of this, as you say, essentially botched expansion plan

In an earlier post I asked if the proposed expansion of Alderbrook would help create places south of Belleville.

I would like to comment on your phrase "a shortage of places"
It seems theere will always be "a shortage of places" at a very good school, at least under the entrance-by-distance model we employ in this country. I would suggest another way to look at it is that there is too much demand for Belleville.
If we all really stepped back and thought about it the reason for this over-demand for Belleville it has quite a lot to do the weakness of schools in the surrounding area.
Now that's a very difficult thing to solve in a parental choice model, but this current mess goes nowhere towards doing so and in fact seems to perpetuate it.

I would re-iterate an earlier point that good schools rely on having a strong link with their local community and the mechanism for this is very simple - that local children attend. Belleville itself, is a great example of this.
Thinking over the longer term, why wouldn't we want that at the Forthbridge site?

[cynic]

AS A REMINDER TO ALL:

A public meeting will be held at Belleville School at 630pm on Mon15 Nov about these proposals

[cynic]

Belleville Governors newsletter makes clear their objections to the new proposals

http://www.belleville-school.org.uk/dat ... 1110v2.pdf

Their chief objection is that they feel the sibling policy may place them at a disadvantage to other schools.
(Fair enough for them to say this especially as they have just
expanded, but I actually think they would still be oversubscribed)

- I think this supports previous posts which have suggested that any changes to the sibling rules should be made across all schools in the area at the same time

The Governors however do go on to make the point that Belleville admitted 30children this September in classes other than reception
"These additional pupils ensure we can keep classes full and run the
school at an optimal level in financial terms. We also believe by
taking children from a little further afield we are ensuring a degree
of diversity amongst our intake -- a feature we are justifiably proud
of at Belleville school"

I think this part of their objection may actually be quite spurious!
As far as I can see in-year vacancies in Wandsworth have their own admission form which applies to all schools
All it says is "Priority for places at many schools is based on how close you live to the school"
So I think Belleville already have to use distance if there is competition for any in-year admissions
In fact I am not sure a new GPA regime would even apply to in-year vacancies too (note say that Beatrix Potter, the school with GPAs already, does not have it's own special in-year application form)
Finally if GPA regime did apply it ultimately also works by distance too (last category is by distance outside the GPA) so I cannot see the outcomes being that different!

I would love to be corrected on this if someone knows any better!

[monaco]

It's interesting to note that the governors suggested some changes to the consultation document to the council but that none of these changes were made.

If they don't even listen to the school governors, it doesn't bode well in terms of them listening to the public.

We should turn en masse to the school meeting to show that there are a lot of people seriously concerned by this proposal.

[custardy]

yes but Monaco, the Belleville Governors didn't want this consultation at all ... the council has published a consultation to give the Forthbridge Rd residents another opportunity to have their say (albeit rather limited in terms of what's on offer). I think there would have been a lot more anger if the Council HAD listened and acted as the Governors wished!

[monaco]

You do have to admit though that the document is not ultra clear so maybe that's what the governors suggested to change ?

[besin]

Monaco, fully agree with your post. It is hard to justify the stubborn resistance of Council's Education Committee - they do not listen to School Governors, they do not listen to Forthbridge residents.

For me it seems to be only one logical explanation = they place their own interests (e.g. house value or rent) above anything else. Custardy, sue me if you think I am wrong or libellous.

[cynic]

AS A REMINDER TO ALL:

A public meeting will be held at Belleville School at 630pm TONIGHT about these proposals



A RESPONSE FROM SOME RESIDENTS LOCAL TO FORTHBRIDGE:

The Belleville Governors are against these Council proposals, so are they even workable?

The proposals are very complicated. They conflate the sibling issue at Belleville with the Forthbridge school access issue.

The sibling issue is separate and is for Belleville parents to decide. Many people would like to see this addressed at ALL the schools in the area at the same time.


This “two ranked GPAs proposal” is flawed because:

- Nearly all of the reception places offered at Belleville in 2010 by distance alone were to addresses already located in the FIRST GPA (including the 30 “Forthbridge places”).

- The distances used in the SECOND GPA will still be measured from the Belleville main site.

- Evidence from other schools shows there’s little realistic chance that any child from the SECOND GPA would ever actually gain a place (Beatrix Potter School 2007-2009)

[cynic]

AN ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION?


• All good schools have a strong link with their local community and Belleville is a great example of this. The mechanism for this is very simple - that local children attend.
How can we achieve this ideal at the Forthbridge school site?


• A guaranteed percentage of the reception places at Forthbridge to be reserved for local children.


• These could be phased-in over a number of years starting from 2012.


• Admission criteria for these to be the same as any other school site BUT distance to be measured from the Forthbridge school site.



Please email us your thoughts and comments at forthbridgeschoolcampaign@yahoo.co.uk

[monaco]

A response from the South of Broomwood residents :

- the current proposal mean the end of local school's choice for people living south of Broomwood Road (no places at either Honeywell, Belleville, Alderbrook or Wix)

- the initial extension to the Forthbridge area was to solve the above issue


Alternative
- reconsider the extension on the Belleville site

- use the Bolingbroke site as an extension site for Belleville school

- create a new school at Forthbridge with local management, local teachers and for local pupils. Distinguish it from Belleville so that residents close to Belleville are not penalised.

- create priority zones for all schools in the borough