[quote]There is no criticism of children as kids will be kids.[/quote]

[quote]Consideration towards others is what society needs, not selfishness[/quote]

Well said OP.

India Knight wrote her own rant on this (I originally sent this piece to my MIL, who frequently bemoans the lack of even 'basic' table manners these days).... sorry if the pic is a bit fuzzy but the full link is behind the paywall.

I'm sure there are times when parents genuinely have to rush off, but as an ex-waitress myself, my advice would be that a heartfelt 'I'm so sorry about the mess', coupled with a generous tip (cash, if possible), goes a long way!

Well it would be completely different wouldn't it? But the post was about the OP being shocked at the selfish behaviour of parents who had no regard to the other customers or staff. No one is perfect and no one is suggesting they are.

However it is more than reasonable to expect a certain standard of conduct if you are going to take your family to a public place. It's not acceptable just to say "they're children" or we're in a "child friendly area", that's just abdicating one's responsibility.

We don't let my girls run around in a restaurant, we do our best to keep our noise at a reasonable level and we always help clear our mess. I'm not being 'holier than thou', I'm just behaving in a way I'd like others to behave with me in a public place.

I am sadden by how offensive a few posts come across - I am sure it was not intentional.I agree with AbbevilleMummy that it does not cast the right shadow for our children.
Parenting is a hard job and there is no doubt every parent is trying their best for their children. That's why I wish we would support each other more rather than be quick at judging. I was wondering what an initial post would look like if written applying the "positive parenting" thinking...something like "I am sitting in a restaurant today and I am pleased to see two Mums engaging their young toddlers in clearing up the food that had fallen on the floor..."and I wonder what kind of changes "positive praise" posts at wider scale would trigger...

*how much*

I couldnt agree more with gruffalo dad and abbevillemummy.
We did the same with our children.
In my experience, it is about setting up expectations. We (my husband and I) would never tolerate anything less that good behaviour otherwise no matter they want to eat out it will not happen.

I have nothing against people having nanny at all-that wasn't my point and I would hate to cause offence-apologies if it was taken that way. I posed the question that for these particular women (and i'm not being judgemental here -from the experiences i have had it has always been women-i can't speak for others) do they leave the discipline to someone else perhaps because I can't fathom how they think such behaviour is acceptable? Of course there are lots of people with nannies who are stellar parents and expect appropriate behaviour…i'm just trying to work out what's going on here-how can clearly educated people think that this is acceptable behaviour??

AbbevilleMummy well said. I have found this thread rather offensive and have had to stop myself writing a knee-jerk response on a number of occasions. For the record, I have never been to a restaurant and let my children run around screaming, nor have I failed to clear up after the mess my children make. Whether or not you employ a nanny is completely irrelevant to how your children behave. But that's stating the obvious!!

I totally agree that children's behaviour in restaurants should be impeccable and I do not tolerate my kids behaving badly when people are spending a lot of money trying to enjoy their food.

However, what on earth has it got to do with whether or not someone employs a nanny?!?! Stereotypical, judgemental, offensive rubbish! How can you bleat on about how people should parent their children when also making nasty sweeping judgements about 'middle-class mothers who employ nannies/au pairs'?! What sort of example are you setting?!

To Anothermummy: it is far better to discipline then DEAL with tantrums than let children run around restaurants, which are not playgrounds but eating establishments.
My toddler makes a helluvamess on the floor/table/chair... when we eat out but I clear up every little bit- it's not hard and it takes seconds.

Well said Gruffalo's Dad! I'm sick and tired of having meals out spoiled. I have no problem with people having nannies; in fact I wish it was the nannies who were taking these children to the restaurants-i've a feeling the behaviour would be a vast improvement. Children enjoying a civilised meal-not a problem-my 2 have always eaten out with us over the years in every sort of restaurant from Macdonalds to Chez Bruce-they know how to behave because we have modelled and taught them which is parent's job isn't it? Running around screaming, getting in the way of waiters etc and leaving the table and surrounding floor in such a mess is NOT children being excited about a meal out. It certainly isn't fun for the people who have to endure it and the people who have to clear it up. I'm afraid it is simply bad manners and a selfish,couldn't care less about other people attitude that we so see so much of these days.

[quote="AnotherMummy"]Please share with me your tips on disciplining excited-to-be-eating-out-with-their-little-friends toddlers - without it escalating to full on tantrums (which would be even more inconvenient for other parents in the restaurant)!

Personally, when going out to places where kids are (mine but others too), I always expect some level of mess and noise as well as an element of risk that my baby might be woken up ...helps me maintain a low level of stress...and keeps me away from being judgmental too! ;)[/quote]

I'm sorry to have to say this but your attitude is really poor.

If you are not disciplining your children because you are afraid of provoking a tantrum they you need to do a full 360 of your parenting because fear of a tantrum should NEVER be a reason for failing to discipline a child. When my daughter was 18-20 months she had a tantrum at a restaurant - a party of ten or so of us, including other children. I took her outside and we walked around outside until she was calmed down. We went back in, 10 minutes later she kicked off again. Again, I took her outside. It wasn't much of a lunch for me, but it nipped the issue in the bud - she realised that I wasn't going to placate her if she threw a tantrum and I wasn't going to leave her there to disturb other diners.

It's pretty shocking that your attitude to the rest of us is that we should suck it up and deal with mess and noise when we eat out. The worst thing about badly-behaved children is that when my children see them it undermines the hard work we put in in teaching them correct behaviour. It also means that some venues ban or actively discourage children, which I can understand given some of the experiences that they must have.

Why are people often so ready to criticise mothers, particularly people who employ nannies? If children are badly behaved, why is the mother in particular to blame? If you employ a nanny it is probably because both parents are working relatively long hours and therefore both parents are responsible for the children's behaviour in equal measure. Rant over!

Incidentally I have been to that Pizza Express a number of times (usually weekend early evenings) and have never noticed noisy children. In fact I remember thinking how civilised it was, considering the number of small children there. Maybe I picked the right time to go...

Having said that, I do find it astonishing what a mess some parents leave. Just a few days ago I went out with my kids who invariably made a mess. When I tidied up and wiped the floor under my daughter's high chair the waitress seemed genuinely surprised and grateful!

Please share with me your tips on disciplining excited-to-be-eating-out-with-their-little-friends toddlers - without it escalating to full on tantrums (which would be even more inconvenient for other parents in the restaurant)!

Personally, when going out to places where kids are (mine but others too), I always expect some level of mess and noise as well as an element of risk that my baby might be woken up ...helps me maintain a low level of stress...and keeps me away from being judgmental too! ;)

Totally agree. To me it seems like most of the nappy valley mothers are far too busy talking to there darling friends rather than disciplining there offspring! :o

[quote="aloha"]Is it because the nanny and the au pair are off duty and these women-because in my experience it is always middle class women-don't know how to raise their own children? Or is it just this awful 'superior' attitude that seems to pervade the Nappy Valley area these days mean that clearing up or supervising their own children is beneath them?[/quote]

This is so true in my experience. We have been to Pizza Express in Wandsworth Common and Pizza Express in Streatham. Streatham = well behaved children sitting and chatting with their parents as they eat. Wandsworth Common = children running around the restaurant knocking things over, shouting at the tops of their voices, and the parents just ignoring them.